Establishing Mindfulness in Front?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
SarathW
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Re: Establishing Mindfulness in Front?

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:57 am

So, I still consider, as daverupa wrote above, parimukhaṁ has "nothing to do with the mouth or the nose."
I was listening to a Sri Lankan monk on this subject and he said that in Anapanasati the meditation of object is the breath body, not the physical body. Hence meditator may see the front of his eyes but his attention in the breath.
It appears to be the same way I keep my attention on my computer screen but I still see what is in front of me.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

paul
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Re: Establishing Mindfulness in Front?

Post by paul » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:03 pm

Taking the beginner’s necessarily linear interpretation of the Anapanasati sutta (MN 118), the first tetrad of the physical body leads to the second, feelings, which arise as bodily sensations. Thanissaro's approach to breath meditation focusses on the arising of pleasant feelings, and is opposed to the visualisation of the sign presented in the Visuddhimagga. The tactile skill of recognizing where the breath touches parts of the body is easier and more elementary than the skill of visualization:

“The commentaries—molding the practice of breath meditation into the
pattern of kasina practice, in which the mind has to become focused exclusively
on a single point—insist that “body” here means the breath, and that the “entire
body” means the entire length of the breath, felt at one spot in the body, such as
the tip of the nose or the upper lip.
This interpretation, however, is unlikely for several reasons. The first is that
the commentaries’ interpretation of step 3 makes it redundant with steps 1 and 2.
It’s hard to understand how you could know whether the breath is long or short
in those steps without being aware of the full length of the breath.
The second reason is that step 3 is immediately followed by step 4, which—
without further explanation—refers to the breath as “bodily fabrication.” If the
Buddha were using two different terms to refer to the breath in such close
proximity—“body” in step 3, and “bodily fabrication” in step 4—he would have
been careful to signal that he was redefining his terms (as he does in a later part
of the discourse, when explaining that the first four steps in breath meditation
correspond to the practice of focusing on the body in and of itself as a frame of
reference). But here he doesn’t.
The third reason is that the similes for the jhanas, which are attained through
the sixteen steps, repeatedly mention a full-body awareness. If the mind were
forced exclusively into a single point, it wouldn’t be able to spread feelings of
rapture or pleasure throughout the entire body in the first three jhanas, or to fill
the body with a clear bright awareness in the fourth.
One response to this last argument is that the word “body” in the similes for
jhana doesn’t mean the physical body, because a person in jhana has to be
oblivious to the physical body. Instead, “body” is meant metaphorically as a
term for the “body” of the mind.
Putting aside the question of why someone with the Buddha’s teaching skills
would use terms in such a potentially confusing way in his basic meditation
instructions, we can simply note that in MN 119 he gives the similes for the
jhanas immediately after his discussion of six ways of focusing on the physical
body. As in the case of steps 3 and 4 in breath meditation, if he had meant
“body” to mean “physical body” in one context, and “mind body” in the
discussion immediately following it, he would have signaled that he was
redefining his terms. But again he doesn’t.
So unless we want to assume that the Buddha was careless or devious in his
meditation instructions, it seems best to interpret “body” as meaning “physical
body” in all of these contexts, and to interpret “entire body” in step 3 as
referring to the entire physical body as sensed from within.”—-“Right mindfulness”, Thanissaro.

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Kumara
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Re: Establishing Mindfulness in Front?

Post by Kumara » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:16 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:57 am
So, I still consider, as daverupa wrote above, parimukhaṁ has "nothing to do with the mouth or the nose."
I was listening to a Sri Lankan monk on this subject and he said that in Anapanasati the meditation of object is the breath body, not the physical body. Hence meditator may see the front of his eyes but his attention in the breath.
It appears to be the same way I keep my attention on my computer screen but I still see what is in front of me.
He's going by Theravadin commentarial gloss, which I don't follow. Neither does Bhikkhu Bodhi. Well, not anymore. In the 2015 version of MLDB (p1191), he notes:
In the first edition I followed this explanation and added in brackets ‘of breath’ after ‘the whole body.’ In retrospect, however, this interpretation seems forced, and I now prefer to take the phrase quite literally.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

SarathW
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Re: Establishing Mindfulness in Front?

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:00 am

He's going by Theravadin commentarial gloss, which I don't follow.
I respect your opinion Bhante.
The point here is that meditation object is not the body but the breath.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Kumara
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Re: Establishing Mindfulness in Front?

Post by Kumara » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:31 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:00 am
He's going by Theravadin commentarial gloss, which I don't follow.
I respect your opinion Bhante.
The point here is that meditation object is not the body but the breath.
I suggest that you read afresh the basic anapanasati instructions.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

SarathW
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Re: Establishing Mindfulness in Front?

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:53 am

[quoteI suggest that you read afresh the basic anapanasati instructions.][/quote]
I think you have to see the distinction between the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipathana Sutta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Kumara
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Re: Establishing Mindfulness in Front?

Post by Kumara » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:39 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:53 am
I suggest that you read afresh the basic anapanasati instructions.]
I think you have to see the distinction between the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipathana Sutta.
I do. (Maha)Satipatthana Sutta is doubtlessly an assemblage. Anyway, I'm not speaking of suttas, but just the basic anapanasati instruction. Please read it first.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

SarathW
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Re: Establishing Mindfulness in Front?

Post by SarathW » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:53 am

Thanks.
:smile:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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