Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Jason wrote:

PeterB wrote:I always end up feeling in these debates that I play the role of the Defender Of Alcohol..
...
I think we have to decide for ourselves where on the spectrum from total abstinence to drinking within our personal limits lies.

I more or less share PeterB's sentiments (e.g., see this).

octathlon wrote:If you have no addiction or attachment to alcohol, the 5th precept should be the easiest one of all to follow. So why not just do that, regardless of whether you perceive drinking as affecting your mindfulness or not. It seems like the Buddha must have considered it to be pretty important, to put in the top 5. (Or, maybe it was just meant for some people, the ones whose mindfulness is affected by it? Let's see if I can find where it says that in the Suttas... )

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:

JackV wrote:Has anyone else made that step from enjoying drink to tee total? If so, is it easy/hard, do you have to change your life about or just be strong and continue?

Like most young men in the UK, I was a regular drinker from the age of 17-21 or so, and not just at weekends. When I started studying Buddhism and meditation, I soon realised that drinking any alcohol was incompatible with following the Buddhist path seriously. I knew that getting intoxicated was just running away from the truth of suffering. Within a week or two I had stopped drinking completely, and have never taken any alcohol since — except maybe the odd chocolate liqueur that I don't notice had alcohol in it before biting it. That was some 37 years ago. It was not difficult to stop, but it very soon became apparent that it was pointless going to the pub with my mates.

If you don't want to be a monk, then its better to visit meditation centres, Buddhist temples, and places of learning, rather than pubs and clubs. You're much more likely to meet a suitable marriage partner in such places. To be married to a non-Buddhist or non-meditator, who likes to drink and party in the western way is always likely to cause problems later in life because you have different values and aims in life, so why go to places that only the heedless enjoy?

Instead of wasting half of your money on alcohol and expensive junk food, invest it in education and learning life skills that will help you in your chosen career.

PeterB wrote:A good illustration of the fact that there is a whole dimension that whoever invented the precepts could not have envisaged.

Kim O'Hara wrote:

Jason wrote:

PeterB wrote:I always end up feeling in these debates that I play the role of the Defender Of Alcohol..
...
I think we have to decide for ourselves where on the spectrum from total abstinence to drinking within our personal limits lies.

I more or less share PeterB's sentiments (e.g., see this).

I'm with you guys.
I don't drink much, and don't want to, but (for me, at least) a glass of wine with dinner is no worse for me in any way than a couple of chocolates afterwards: minor indulgences with no consequences. If I could find another drink that I enjoyed as much with food, I would probably switch, but finding such an alternative is a fair way down my list of 'things which would make me a better person' so I may not get around to it for years.


Kim

Furthermore, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the fifth great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & priests. And this is the eighth reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing; to welfare & to happiness.

cooran wrote: I'm wondering if someone can point to a Sutta where total abstinence at all times is required. I can see it is part of the Uposatha Day ceremony - but can anyone point to where having a glass of wine/other alcohol on a weekly, fortnightly or monthly basis at a dinner is forbidden?

David N. Snyder wrote:Oops, I didn't see that Mawk already posted the link to AN 8.39

But now I think I remember what Bhante Dhammanando said. I think he said that 'disciple of noble ones' could be interpreted as the ordained Sangha, not necessarily lay people, but that it is somewhat vague.

"Venerable sir, in what way is one a lay follower?

"Mahanama, inasmuch as one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge; in that way, Mahanama, one is a lay follower."

"Then, venerable sir, in what way is a lay follower virtuous?"

"Mahanama, inasmuch as a lay follower abstains from destroying living beings; abstains from taking what is not given; abstains from sexual misconduct; abstains from lying; and abstains from wine, liquor and intoxicants that are causes for heedlessness; in that way, Mahanama, a lay follower is virtuous."

Lord, to what extent is one a lay follower?"

"Jivaka, when one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, and has gone to the Sangha for refuge, then to that extent is one a lay follower."

"And to what extent, lord, is one a virtuous lay follower?"

"Jivaka, when one abstains from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from lying, and from fermented & distilled drinks that lead to heedlessness, then to that extent is one a virtuous lay follower."

"We, Lord, are laymen who enjoy worldly pleasure. We lead a life encumbered by wife and children. We use sandalwood of Kasi. We deck ourselves with garlands, perfume and unguents. We use gold and silver. To those like us, O Lord, let the Exalted One preach the Dhamma, teach those things that lead to weal and happiness in this life and to weal and happiness in future life."...."Herein a householder abstains from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, and from intoxicants that cause infatuation and heedlessness. This is called the accomplishment of virtue.

bodom wrote: "Then, venerable sir, in what way is a lay follower virtuous?"

"Mahanama, inasmuch as a lay follower abstains from destroying living beings; abstains from taking what is not given; abstains from sexual misconduct; abstains from lying; and abstains from wine, liquor and intoxicants that are causes for heedlessness; in that way, Mahanama, a lay follower is virtuous."

Mawkish1983 wrote:Does anyone know the original pali word that was translated here as 'disciple'?

"Ariya-sāvaka"
In the traditional Pali commentaries, the Pali term "ariya-sāvaka" is explained as "the disciple of the Noble One (i.e. Buddha)".[10] Accordingly Soma Thera and Thanissaro Bhikkhu translate this term as "The disciple of the Noble Ones" [11]
However Bhikkhu Bodhi interprets this term as "noble disciple", and according to him, in the Pali suttas, this term is used in two ways:[12]
broadly: any lay disciple (Pāli: upasaka, upasika) of the Buddha;
narrowly: one who is at least on the path to enlightenment (Pāli: sotāpatti maggattha). In this sense, "ordinary people" (puthujjana) can be contrasted with this narrow definition of "noble disciple" (ariya-sāvaka).[13]