Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Kim OHara
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Post by Kim OHara »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 12:30 am I see it's not an 'open and shut case'.
It's more like a case-by-case case. :tongue:
Various arguments are being made on both sides.
Most of them boil down to "don't take what's not given" on one side (funny, that) and "but it's not hurting anyone" on the other.
I agree we shouldn't download Photoshop or the latest series of Game of Thrones just because we don't want to pay (although what about if someone, e.g. a student, can't pay?)
They go out and work for the money and then pay. Just as they do when they can't afford food, although with far less sense of urgency.
Also, what about streaming TV shows that your local TV network doesn't broadcast? You have no control over which shows they broadcast.
These days it's possible to buy access to most shows in most countries. If you can't, the owner/s aren't selling it to you and illegal downloads are, again, stealing.
But what about if something isn't available in your country? These Thai books I mentioned (Learn to read with Manee) don't seem to be available in ebook form on the Internet, and they're definitely not available in print here in New Zealand. The lady running the site posted a video of an interview she did with the writer of the books, which seems to imply that the distribution is legit. Am I obsessing too much over this? If there were ebook versions for sale I would buy them.
This is legitimately a grey area. :thumbsup:
If you're reasonably sure that the writer and publisher are happy with the idea, go for it.
If you're not, you could try to find out.
If you can't find out, you've done all you can reasonably do and again (IMO) can go for it with a clear conscience.
If you want to thank/pay the writer in some way, a donation to a literacy project in Thailand would be very appropriate.

:namaste:
Kim
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mikenz66
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Post by mikenz66 »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 12:30 am But what about if something isn't available in your country? These Thai books I mentioned (Learn to read with Manee) don't seem to be available in ebook form on the Internet, and they're definitely not available in print here in New Zealand. The lady running the site posted a video of an interview she did with the writer of the books, which seems to imply that the distribution is legit. Am I obsessing too much over this? If there were ebook versions for sale I would buy them.
As far as I know, the "Learn to read with Manee" books have been out of print for decades. They were written in the 70s, and many Thai people I know (aged between about 40 and 50) used them at school. From what I can see on the Internet, they were digitized to preserve them on Thailand’s National Digital Library Network.

So I don't think downloading them is an issue.

There are a number of on-line resources using the books. I fondly remember the version at learningthai.com, which is now off line. This site: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/thai/maanii1/fsmaanii1.htm has something similar.

:heart:
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Chula wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:42 pm I recently found a detailed response on this from Bhante Yuttadhammo that I think does a very good job:

http://buddhism.stackexchange.com/quest ... /2869#2869

I think I generally agree with that perspective.
Thanks for sharing! :bow:
I already knew his position but not the entire exposition. :tongue:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
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coconut
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Post by coconut »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:59 pm
Chula wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:42 pm I recently found a detailed response on this from Bhante Yuttadhammo that I think does a very good job:

http://buddhism.stackexchange.com/quest ... /2869#2869

I think I generally agree with that perspective.
Thanks for sharing! :bow:
I already knew his position but not the entire exposition. :tongue:
My memory of the vinaya isn't strong, but for that precept to be broken doesn't it have to be a certain monetary value. I'm pretty sure the vinaya sets a number.
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rhinoceroshorn
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There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Both are making the author and the book industry lose money. Will someone say that going to libraries is unethical and breaks the 2nd precept?
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by Sam Vara »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:05 am Both are making the author and the book industry lose money. Will someone say that going to libraries is unethical and breaks the 2nd precept?
No, because when using a library one does not take what is not given.
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by Inedible »

This sounds like a rationalization. You know better but you want to do it anyway. Still, I am not well off financially and I have found that being able to download books without paying for them has really helped me in the past. Often I have really enjoyed books by authors I never would have risked spending money on if I hadn't read something of theirs first without paying for it. But to the extent that I can, I try to pay for and collect authorized copies when I really like something. It occurs to me now that if nothing else you can help authors by writing effective reviews of their books. A well written review should say how a book has done something for you and why a person who is considering buying a book should do it. Unfortunately a lot of books about practical skills tend to only have reviews about how entertaining the book is or about how easy it was to read. No one says I put in time trying to do what this book said and I got the expected result. That is what I look for when checking reviews of unfamiliar material.
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Kim OHara
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by Kim OHara »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:05 am Both are making the author and the book industry lose money. Will someone say that going to libraries is unethical and breaks the 2nd precept?
Sam Vara's reply is absolutely right and it's really all you need to know as a Buddhist.

But there is something most people don't know about, which makes authors happy that their work is loaned out by libraries: libraries (in many countries, at least) put money into a fund which is then distributed to the authors according to how popular their books are with borrowers. A sort of rental scheme, in a way. More info at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Lending_Right.

It could even be argued that we, as borrowers, do pay authors when we borrow their books, since libraries are supported by the taxes we pay.

:reading:
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by Mr. Seek »

I think there are greater hindrances to be tackled in life.

Whatever action you take in this situation, you'll both benefit and not benefit the author. In either case, all will be OK. Just follow common sense and what you feel like others around you will agree on - the law, etc.
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:23 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:05 am Both are making the author and the book industry lose money. Will someone say that going to libraries is unethical and breaks the 2nd precept?
No, because when using a library one does not take what is not given.
So, when using a downloaded book one doesn't take what is not since taken in the precept means subtraction, removal. Nothing is removed but multiplied. It's even more ethical and more democratic than a library since everyone can own a digital book and read it whenever they want, in opposition to a single book shared at a library.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:57 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:23 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:05 am Both are making the author and the book industry lose money. Will someone say that going to libraries is unethical and breaks the 2nd precept?
No, because when using a library one does not take what is not given.
So, when using a downloaded book one doesn't take what is not given since given in the precept means subtraction, removal. Nothing is removed but multiplied. It's even a more ethical and more democratic than a library since everyone can own a digital book and read it whenever they want, in opposition to a single book shared at a library.
I think selling dhamma books for money is bad karma..so books available on amazon, eBay etc are bad karma if sold by monastics but if sold by layman also bad karma.. but if its commentary or personal experience then can be sold by layman but not my monastics (including anagaria)
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:01 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:57 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:23 am

No, because when using a library one does not take what is not given.
So, when using a downloaded book one doesn't take what is not given since given in the precept means subtraction, removal. Nothing is removed but multiplied. It's even a more ethical and more democratic than a library since everyone can own a digital book and read it whenever they want, in opposition to a single book shared at a library.
I think selling dhamma books for money is bad karma..so books available on amazon, eBay etc are bad karma if sold by monastics but if sold by layman also bad karma.. but if its commentary or personal experience then can be sold by layman but not my monastics (including anagaria)
What determines if a book is dhammic or not? Mentioning Buddhism? I don't think so.
I like to see the Dhamma as laws on how not to suffer. Like nutrition: laws on how not to get malnourished. Everyone everywhere can discover some Dhamma without a Buddha. We ourselves in our lives discover bits of the Dhamma, but only a few can figure out the path to the ancient city of Nirvana.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:07 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:01 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:57 am

So, when using a downloaded book one doesn't take what is not given since given in the precept means subtraction, removal. Nothing is removed but multiplied. It's even a more ethical and more democratic than a library since everyone can own a digital book and read it whenever they want, in opposition to a single book shared at a library.
I think selling dhamma books for money is bad karma..so books available on amazon, eBay etc are bad karma if sold by monastics but if sold by layman also bad karma.. but if its commentary or personal experience then can be sold by layman but not my monastics (including anagaria)
What determines if a book is dhammic or not? Mentioning Buddhism? I don't think so.
I like to see the Dhamma as laws on how not to suffer. Like nutrition: laws on how not to get malnourished. Everyone everywhere can discover some Dhamma without a Buddha. We ourselves in our lives discover bits of the Dhamma, but only a few can figure out the path to the ancient city of Nirvana.
I am telling selling buddha discourse like Pali canon etc or suttas... if someone find some practice interesting then why can't they put online for free and submit for free archive in library ... why demand money? its hard to find some pdf of great master teachings in Tibetan tradition
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Kim OHara wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:50 am It could even be argued that we, as borrowers, do pay authors when we borrow their books, since libraries are supported by the taxes we pay.
What about the internet bill?
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:10 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:07 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:01 am

I think selling dhamma books for money is bad karma..so books available on amazon, eBay etc are bad karma if sold by monastics but if sold by layman also bad karma.. but if its commentary or personal experience then can be sold by layman but not my monastics (including anagaria)
What determines if a book is dhammic or not? Mentioning Buddhism? I don't think so.
I like to see the Dhamma as laws on how not to suffer. Like nutrition: laws on how not to get malnourished. Everyone everywhere can discover some Dhamma without a Buddha. We ourselves in our lives discover bits of the Dhamma, but only a few can figure out the path to the ancient city of Nirvana.
I am telling selling buddha discourse like Pali canon etc or suttas... if someone find some practice interesting then why can't they put online for free and submit for free archive in library ... why demand money? its hard to find some pdf of great master teachings in Tibetan tradition
Oh, I see. I indeed agree it's a bad thing but I'm going even further than that.
I mean, putting monetary value on information like books only limits their access. What is good about that? It's only the author's greed. Sharing like P2P should be praised. Like I read a bunch of pirated books and gained much information which improved my life, I want people to do the same too in order for them to improve their lives. :anjali:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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