Sexual Misconduct

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
VeganLiz
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by VeganLiz » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:37 pm

Vossaga wrote:About casual sex, my opinion is the Buddhist teaching would not generally support such behaviour. The reasons are many, such as: (1) the motivation is primarily lust; at times loneliness; (2) virtues, such as love, compassion, relationship skills, etc, are not developed; and (3) insecurity or ungroundedness & associated craving can develop, in short, addiction qualities, what in Buddhism is called 'hungry ghost'


I hadn't looked at it like that, thanks- that makes a lot of sense to me.
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh

VeganLiz
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by VeganLiz » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:38 pm

Thanks for all the posts.
:namaste:
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh

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Annapurna
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Annapurna » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:59 pm

PeterB wrote:My own view , which is unlikely to be popular, is that the only sex that we can be sure is not in contradiction to the precept is that between people who are married or in in a civil partnership, and even then it has to be fully consensual on each occasion.
my opinon as well

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Jason
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Jason » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:17 pm

VeganLiz wrote:
Vossaga wrote:About casual sex, my opinion is the Buddhist teaching would not generally support such behaviour. The reasons are many, such as: (1) the motivation is primarily lust; at times loneliness; (2) virtues, such as love, compassion, relationship skills, etc, are not developed; and (3) insecurity or ungroundedness & associated craving can develop, in short, addiction qualities, what in Buddhism is called 'hungry ghost'


I hadn't looked at it like that, thanks- that makes a lot of sense to me.
Hm, I'd argue that the motivation for sex in most circumstances is lust. Even if you're having sex with someone you deeply love, you're most likely having sex with them out of lust. I know just from personal experience, for example, that I generally don't have sex out of a desire to be compassionate or virtuous, even though it's with a partner that I deeply love and have been with for seven years. Just some food for thought.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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VeganLiz
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by VeganLiz » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:59 am

That is true....sex involves lust.

But I do agree that it's important to re-examine feelings behind sex. Like she/he said, if you're having sex out of fear of being alone it is not entirely sincere or honest to the person you're with.
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh

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phil
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by phil » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:00 am

tiltbillings wrote:Always becomes a ticklish, if not downright touchy, subject when Buddhists start talking about sex, and gawd forbid if it slides into such a sticky subject as masturbation.
Bring it on cowboy! Nothing sticky about it as far as I'm concerned. (That's why God invented the shower.) The chicken is choked, and life goes on with a little less deluded perception at work in the mind than a few minutes earlier.

Glad you mentionned it, actually. Sexual fantasies, can't be called sexual misconduct, but anyone who is concerned about carrying on and on and on accumulating delighting in sense objects might find him or herself considering the implications of accumualting sex fantasies, which are presumedly mental volition. So we have maybe something like in the Rahula sutta, where he is taught by the Buddha to confess to his fellow monks about bad behaviour in body and speech, but not when it comes to mental behaviour, because there would be no end to the confessing. So instead, a moment to vow not to carry on with the harmful behaviour.

That's why for a limited time only I am offering seminars in my revolutionary "wanking without a wankery" non-fantasizing technique, I think I will put a youtube clip up later today. :jumping:
Last edited by phil on Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

VeganLiz
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by VeganLiz » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:05 am

phil wrote:Glad you mentionned it, actually. Sexual fantasies, can't be called sexual misconduct
BUT what if the fantasies are wrong? Don't our thoughts matter?
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by phil » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:07 am

VeganLiz wrote:That is true....sex involves lust.

But I do agree that it's important to re-examine feelings behind sex. Like she/he said, if you're having sex out of fear of being alone it is not entirely sincere or honest to the person you're with.
Well said, and what is the better option, two people in love, creating something absolutely beautiful together, a perfect union of souls expressed through the living flesh? We know that is a deluded perception too. I would guess the best thing about sex from a Buddhist point of view is that when two people who have a respectful, honest, virtue-rooted relationship have sex together they are expending the accumulated lust in the best possible way short of mutual abstinence. But any thought of it being beautiful or wholesome must be revealed, eventually, as deluded, because unless we overcome our attachment to the body and to sensual pleasures, there will be fear of death, and painful clinging to life when death comes. As usual, the Dhamma goes against the ways of the world! Let's all join hands and shout WE ARE DONE WITH BUMPING UGLIES! :smile:
Last edited by phil on Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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phil
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by phil » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:08 am

VeganLiz wrote:
phil wrote:Glad you mentionned it, actually. Sexual fantasies, can't be called sexual misconduct
BUT what if the fantasies are wrong? Don't our thoughts matter?

Right you are. I stand corrected. But see my comments on the Rahula sutta, misconduct through fantasies are to be seen in a different way than misconduct through body or speech.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by phil » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:27 am

By the way, Vegan Liz. I understand that you asked about this in utter sincerity and showing trust of strangers, so I apologize if I seem to be facetious above. I take the issue seriously, but feel writing with humour about sex is the best way to write about it. But thank you for turning to this community with your question. :smile:
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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phil
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by phil » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:33 am

phil wrote:By the way, Vegan Liz. I understand that you asked about this in utter sincerity and showing trust of strangers, so I apologize if I seem to be facetious above. I take the issue seriously, but feel writing with humour about sex is the best way to write about it. But thank you for turning to this community with your question. :smile:
Also, if as you say sex is a new thing, the kind of approach/attitude I wrote about above is surely premature, more suitable for when decades of experience with the stuff or even worse decades of frustrated not-enough-experience with the stuff leads to a kind of wisening up. There is a word "revulsion" in Buddhism (I think nibidda or something like that in Pali) which apparently doesn't mean what "revulsion" usually means to us, but which probably gets at the sense of "enough of this" that develops gradually in life through experience of sense pleasures combined with deepening wisdom. Not that a younger person couldn't also experience this so-called "revulsion."

Xtians might reject sex out of some prudery or because the Bible says its wrong, but if Buddhists do it is probably understanding that is developing insight into the shortcomings of the behaviour involved and the advantages of the options. It always comes down to understanding for us....
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by ground » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:48 am

phil wrote:I take the issue seriously, but feel writing with humour about sex is the best way to write about it.
I do not feel that humour is appropriate in the context of what binds beings in samsara.


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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by VeganLiz » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:00 am

Hi Phil,

Having a sense of humor regarding sex is usually fine with me, unless it's making light of issues such as rape (which you were not, of course).

I am new to sex and just thought I'd ask about sexual misconduct. I'm not super young, I put it off for a long time because I was considering waiting until marriage for sometime. I feel differently about this now.

:smile:
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh

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phil
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by phil » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:37 am

I do not feel that humour is appropriate in the context of what binds beings in samsara.
Hi Mingyur

I would never joke about any kind of sexual violence or anger, or about many other forms of delusion that lead to harmful behaviour. But there is something absurd about how the perception of sex is created as being something beautiful, so I can't help but find it humorous. These days I seem to be quite serious about choosing a celibate lifestyle, and perhaps because this is a radical thing for a lay follower to do, I prefer to stay relaxed and humorous about it as a way of not tightening the lute strings too tight. Also because I know the likelihood of maintaining the celibacy is rather low. I wouldn't joke about a bhikkhu's celibacy, that is much nobler than my experiment. In any case, my apologies if you or anyone was offended.

I remember once listening to Bhikkhu Bodhi talk about the meditation on foulness of the body, and he laughed as he described an imaginary scene of the 32 body parts laid out on the table, how absurd that anyone could find such a mess of body parts attractive, there seemed to me to be something liberating in that moment of laughter....

Metta,

Phil
p.s I know this thread is about sexual misconduct, not celibacy, so I will now shut up about my new favourite pasttime.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Ben
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Re: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Ben » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:46 am

phil wrote: p.s I know this thread is about sexual misconduct, not celibacy, so I will now shut up about my new favourite pasttime.
Your perspective, Phil, is valuable in this discussion. There is no need to 'shut up'.
kind regards

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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