Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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confusedlayman
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Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by confusedlayman »

When ever i read vinaya, i come to the view buddha is not only perfect in thinking at present but also perfect in thinking of future and seriousness of conventional reality...

His vinaya rules laid is surely a must follow stuff.. if someone keeps vinaya perfect, he/she can surely win jhana, easy progress to nibbana, live faultless in this very life, cannot be blamed even for needle inch, will live with distinction from others of world...

I think buddha also saw future circumstances and laid rules which are still true today and will be true in future... I am extremely impressed and my respect to buddha increased from infinite to more infinite...

If he gave this much importance to vinaya, it is because he really cared about keep dhamma for long time in earth out of compassion.. we need to take seriously if we become monk in future...

My request to people in forum who will become future monks if please follow vinaya and dont disfollow vinaya even at life sake...
Many people building fast boat to reach other side of samsara called nibbana shore...

But it is actually reached " by not travelling, not driving the boat, not moving the mind"

as long as movement of mind is there, then revolve and rotate in samara

Caodemarte
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by Caodemarte »

My understanding is that the Buddha may have set some basic rules and approved others, but the more complex, highly codified Vinaya was set up after the monastic community became settled and increased in number after his death. This required more regulation, mostly suggested by and agreed to by the disciples. The detailed code clearly evolved over time in accordance with circumstances as one would expect.

What Buddha did was to establish that all the rules were meant to help on the path to liberation and intention is the key, not slavish obedience to the letter of the law while ignoring its purpose or from finding technical hair-splitting ways to slip through the rules, but violate their purpose. As long as you stick to this, you are following what Buddha called Dharma-Vinaya (teaching and discipline).
Last edited by Caodemarte on Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Dhamma is more important than Vinaya. Vinaya, interpreted differently or wrongly understood, has created divisions like Dhammayut and Mahānikāya, and many other nikāyas in each Buddhist country. The Kosambī dispute was started over a fine point of Vinaya.

A Dhamma master used the latrine and forget to refill the water receptacle after using it. The Vinaya master using the latrine afterwards noticed this, and reminded the Dhamma master of the offence of wrong-doing. The Dhamma master apologised saying that he had forgotten. The Vinaya master said that in that case their was no offence. The Dhamma master and the Vinaya master quarrelled, and their disciples quarrelled too.

In Thailand, the Dhammayut nikāya, and many Thai monks are particular about receiving offerings from women. They always use a receiving cloth. However, there is no need for that. One can simply touch the dish to accept it, and the gift is properly offered. Money is not allowed for monks, but the Dhammayut monks misinterpret this as money should not be touched. They accept money in an envelope. This is daft, and it defeats the entire purpose of the rule.

Bottom line: The Buddha had higher knowledge when framing the rules to protect the Sāsana to endure longer, but contemporary monks lack higher knowledge, so they often misunderstand the purpose of the rule. We need knowledge of Dhamma as well.
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DooDoot
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:31 pm
When ever i read vinaya, i come to the view buddha is not only perfect in thinking ...
What evidence is there the Buddha spoke the 227 rules? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by sentinel »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:06 pm

In Thailand, the Dhammayut nikāya, and many Thai monks are particular about receiving offerings from women. They always use a receiving cloth. However, there is no need for that. One can simply touch the dish to accept it, and the gift is properly offered. Money is not allowed for monks, but the Dhammayut monks misinterpret this as money should not be touched. They accept money in an envelope. This is daft, and it defeats the entire purpose of the rule.
Bhante , there was a reason behind using the cloth . That supposed to draw a wider distance between monks and womens to prevent accidentally come into contact if they are too near .
The rule of money was said classed as minor rule and can be abolished .
And was said not practical in many countries where almsround are difficult to practice .
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

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sentinel wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:56 am
Bhante , there was a reason behind using the cloth . That supposed to draw a wider distance between monks and womens to prevent accidentally come into contact if they are too near .
There is certainly some logic to it, but, as I understand it, the cloth is a Thai (and presumably nearby countries) custom, not a Vinaya rule. Apparently it can cause some difficulties for Bhikkhus when there is a mixture of Thai and Sri Lankan women, with different expectations of how it should work, since whatever they do is likely to be seen as incorrect by some...

Though, actually, at our local Thai monastery cloths are not used for receiving food. The monks sit at the table and the lay people and monks touch some of the plates. And, of course, a monk on alms round (which is not practical here) uses a bowl, not a cloth.

Cloths are used for donations of requisites, or donations to the monastery, in the Vihara.

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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

sentinel wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:56 am
The rule of money was said classed as minor rule and can be abolished .
And was said not practical in many countries where almsround are difficult to practice .
11. The Minor and Lesser Precepts
“It has been said by the Blessed One, ‘It is from higher knowledge, O monks, that I teach Dhamma.’¹ Yet he also said, ‘When I am gone, Ānanda, let the Order if it should so wish, abolish the minor and lesser pre­cepts.’² Were then those precepts laid down in error and without due cause?”
“When the Blessed One, O king, said, ‘Let the Order abolish the lesser and minor precepts,’ it was said in order to test the monks. As a king on his death bed would test his sons saying, ‘The outer regions of my kingdom will be in danger of falling after my death.’ Then would his sons on the death of their father give up those outlying districts?”
“No indeed, venerable sir. Kings are grasping. The princes might, in their lust for power, subjugate an area twice what they already had but they would never willingly give up what they possessed.”
“Just so, O king, the sons of the Buddha, in their enthus­iasm for the Dhamma might keep even more than one hundred and fifty³ regu­la­tions but they would never give up any that had been laid down.”
“Venerable Nāgasena, when the Blessed One refer­red to the ‘Minor and Lesser Precepts’ people might be in doubt as to which these were.”
“Those acts of wrong-doing ⁴ are the lesser pre­cepts, and wrong speech ⁵ refers to the minor pre­cepts. The elders who convened the First Buddhist Council were also not unanimous about this matter.”

¹ A. i. 276; cf. M. ii. 9.
² D. ii. 154; Vin. ii. 287.
³ Excluding the 75 minor training rules there are 152 precepts.
⁴ Dukkaṭa: Transgressions against the 75 training rules and other minor regulations.
⁵ Dubbhāsita: Frivolous or sarcastic speech that does not amount to lying or abuse of a monk.

None of the 227 training rules were rescinded at the first council, and none have been rescinded by any Saṅgāyana since, including the most recent Sixth Buddhist Council. They all still apply to all Theravāda bhikkhus. Individual bhikkhus or nikāyas may choose not to follow some rules, but they will not be free from offences if they do so. The money rule is particularly tricky and sticky because it cannot be confessed until the improperly acquired money or anything bought with it has been forfeited in the proper way. If a temple has been bought with money accepted by monks, no monks should make use of that temple! If money is just used for train tickets, etc., it is not quite so problematic. The money has been used, and there is nothing to forfeit; the offence can simply be confessed.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

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sentinel wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:56 am
Bhante , there was a reason behind using the cloth . That supposed to draw a wider distance between monks and womens to prevent accidentally come into contact if they are too near .
Yes. There is a reason — a misunderstanding of the Vinaya rules. Monks are afraid that they might be unmindful and accidentally touch a woman's hand, or that a woman might be unmindful and accidentally touch a monk's hand, or perhaps even that she might deliberately touch a monk's hand. Whatever, there is no offence in touching a woman unless it is done due to lust or affection.
Buddhist Monastic Code wrote:The Vibhaṅga does not discuss the issue of bhikkhus who intentionally make active contact with women for purposes other than lust or affection — e.g., helping a woman who has fallen into a raging river — but the Commentary does. It introduces the concept of anāmasa, things carrying a Dukkaṭa penalty when touched; women and clothing belonging to a woman top the list. It then goes into great detail to tell how one should behave when one’s mother falls into a raging river. Under no circumstances, it says, should one grab hold of her, although one may extend a rope, a board, etc., in her direction. If she happens to grab hold of her son the bhikkhu, he should not shake her off, but should simply let her hold on as he swims back to shore.
Where the Commentary gets the concepts of anāmasa is hard to say. Perhaps it came from the practices of the Brahmin caste, who are very careful not to touch certain things and people of certain lower castes. At any rate, there is no direct basis for it in the Canon. Although the concept has received universal acceptance in Theravādin Communities, many highly‑respected Vinaya experts have made an exception right here, saying that there is nothing wrong in touching a woman when one’s action is based not on lust, but on a desire to save her from danger. Even if there is an offence in doing so, there are other places where Buddhaghosa recommends that one be willing to incur a minor penalty for the sake of compassion (e.g., digging a person out of a hole into which he has fallen), and the same principle surely holds here.
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sentinel
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by sentinel »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:25 am
11. The Minor and Lesser Precepts
“It has been said by the Blessed One, ‘It is from higher knowledge, O monks, that I teach Dhamma.’¹ Yet he also said, ‘When I am gone, Ānanda, let the Order if it should so wish, abolish the minor and lesser pre­cepts.’² Were then those precepts laid down in error and without due cause?”
“When the Blessed One, O king, said, ‘Let the Order abolish the lesser and minor precepts,’ it was said in order to test the monks. As a king on his death bed would test his sons saying, ‘The outer regions of my kingdom will be in danger of falling after my death.’ Then would his sons on the death of their father give up those outlying districts?”
“No indeed, venerable sir. Kings are grasping. The princes might, in their lust for power, subjugate an area twice what they already had but they would never willingly give up what they possessed.”
“Just so, O king, the sons of the Buddha, in their enthus­iasm for the Dhamma might keep even more than one hundred and fifty³ regu­la­tions but they would never give up any that had been laid down.”
“Venerable Nāgasena, when the Blessed One refer­red to the ‘Minor and Lesser Precepts’ people might be in doubt as to which these were.”
“Those acts of wrong-doing ⁴ are the lesser pre­cepts, and wrong speech ⁵ refers to the minor pre­cepts. The elders who convened the First Buddhist Council were also not unanimous about this matter.”

¹ A. i. 276; cf. M. ii. 9.
² D. ii. 154; Vin. ii. 287.
³ Excluding the 75 minor training rules there are 152 precepts.
⁴ Dukkaṭa: Transgressions against the 75 training rules and other minor regulations.
⁵ Dubbhāsita: Frivolous or sarcastic speech that does not amount to lying or abuse of a monk.

None of the 227 training rules were rescinded at the first council, and none have been rescinded by any Saṅgāyana since, including the most recent Sixth Buddhist Council. They all still apply to all Theravāda bhikkhus. Individual bhikkhus or nikāyas may choose not to follow some rules, but they will not be free from offences if they do so. The money rule is particularly tricky and sticky because it cannot be confessed until the improperly acquired money or anything bought with it has been forfeited in the proper way. If a temple has been bought with money accepted by monks, no monks should make use of that temple! If money is just used from train tickets, etc., it is not quite so problematic. The money has been used, and there is nothing to forfeit; the offence can simply be confessed.
The grey area would be asking a kapiya or an attendant to hold the money on monk behalf in an bank account or even cash if not so much .
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by sentinel »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:35 am

Yes. There is a reason — a misunderstanding of the Vinaya rules. Monks are afraid that they might be unmindful and accidentally touch a woman's hand, or that a woman might be unmindful and accidentally touch a monk's hand, or perhaps even that she might deliberately touch a monk's hand. Whatever, there is no offence in touching a woman unless it is done due to lust or affection.
I didnt say it is a vinaya rule .
This may appear illogical to many i guess .
I remember a monk told me but vaguely , if a monk has very strong lust , even if the lady on passing the offering through some material (such as metal) he would get kind of electric shock , that is how cloth was introduce to prevent such incident from occuring .
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

sentinel wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:45 am
The grey area would be asking a kappiya or an attendant to hold the money on the monk's behalf in a bank account or even cash if not so much.
There is no grey area in the rule itself. If the bhikkhu instructs the donor to give the money to a lay attendant, it is to be forfeited. If the donor asks if there is a lay attendant, the bhikkhu can point out the lay attendant, and the donor can give the money to the lay attendant telling them to provide whatever the monks need. If the attendant fails to provide what the monk or monks need even after three times of asking and standing in silence up to a sixth time, the monk should inform the donor to recover the donation before it is lost.
The correct procedure is clearly laid down in NP10, the longest of the 227 rules.
“Bhikkhuṃ paneva uddissa rājā vā rājabhoggo vā brāhmaṇo vā gahapatiko vā dūtena cīvaracetāpannaṃ pahiṇeyya — ‘Iminā cīvaracetāpannena cīvaraṃ cetāpetvā itthannāmaṃ bhikkhuṃ cīvarena acchādehī’ti. So ce dūto taṃ bhikkhuṃ upasaṅkamitvā evaṃ vadeyya — ‘Idaṃ kho, bhante, āyasmantaṃ uddissa cīvaracetāpannaṃ ābhataṃ, paṭiggaṇhātu āyasmā cīvaracetāpanna’nti, tena bhikkhunā so dūto evamassa vacanīyo — ‘Na kho mayaṃ, āvuso, cīvaracetāpannaṃ paṭiggaṇhāma. Cīvarañca kho mayaṃ paṭiggaṇhāma, kālena kappiya’nti. So ce dūto taṃ bhikkhuṃ evaṃ vadeyya — ‘Atthi panāyasmato koci veyyāvaccakaro’ti, cīvaratthikena, bhikkhave, bhikkhunā veyyāvaccakaro niddisitabbo ārāmiko vā upāsako vā — ‘Eso kho, āvuso, bhikkhūnaṃ veyyāvaccakaro’ti. So ce dūto taṃ veyyāvaccakaraṃ saññāpetvā taṃ bhikkhuṃ upasaṅkamitvā evaṃ vadeyya — ‘Yaṃ kho, bhante, āyasmā veyyāvaccakaraṃ niddisi saññatto so mayā, upasaṅkamatu āyasmā kālena, cīvarena taṃ acchādessatī’ti, cīvaratthikena, bhikkhave, bhikkhunā veyyāvaccakaro upasaṅkamitvā dvattikkhattuṃ codetabbo sāretabbo — ‘Attho me, āvuso, cīvarenā’ti. Dvattikkhattuṃ codayamāno sārayamāno taṃ cīvaraṃ abhinipphādeyya, iccetaṃ kusalaṃ; no ce abhinipphādeyya, catukkhattuṃ pañcakkhattuṃ chakkhattuparamaṃ tuṇhībhūtena uddissa ṭhātabbaṃ. Catukkhattuṃ pañcakkhattuṃ chakkhattuparamaṃ tuṇhībhūto uddissa tiṭṭhamāno taṃ cīvaraṃ abhinipphādeyya, iccetaṃ kusalaṃ; tato ce uttari vāyamamāno taṃ cīvara abhinipphādeyya, nissaggiyaṃ pācittiyaṃ. No ce abhinipphādeyya, yatassa cīvaracetāpannaṃ ābhataṃ, tattha sāmaṃ vā gantabbaṃ dūto vā pāhetabbo — ‘Yaṃ kho tumhe āyasmanto bhikkhuṃ uddissa cīvaracetāpannaṃ pahiṇittha, na taṃ tassa bhikkhuno kiñci atthaṃ anubhoti, yuñjantāyasmanto sakaṃ, mā vo sakaṃ vinassā’ti, ayaṃ tattha sāmīcī”ti.
Although the word of the rule only mentions the purchase price of a robe, one can use the four standards to apply it to any requisites that are allowable for monks, from toothpaste, to tickets, or even dwelling places. Donors may also specify the what the fund is to be used for, e.g. buy tickets for the monks to travel to give Dhamma talks wherever they are invited, or provide the monks with medicinal requisites.
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sentinel
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by sentinel »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:48 am
Although the word of the rule only mentions the purchase price of a robe, one can use the four standards to apply it to any requisites that are allowable for monks, from toothpaste, to tickets, or even dwelling places. Donors may also specify the what the fund is to be used for, e.g. buy tickets for the monks to travel to give Dhamma talks wherever they are invited, or provide the monks with medicinal requisites.
Were there any example in Buddha's time where donor informing the monk that s/he donate the money to the monk to be kept by the kapiya for whatever usage . The monk later would inform the kapiya to purchase all type of foods , medicines & supplements , to purchase lands to build temple etc ?
Would it be against the rule if monk instruct the kapiya to use the money to purchase laptop , phone , car , property to be rented out , to keep in the bank to earn interest , to pay for studies or education of non dhammic or not related to dhamma courses and programs , to use the money to travel around etc etc ?

Can a monk setup a Fund to collect money from lay peoples to be used to support future use of monks in four requisites and other necessities ?
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

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Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:25 am
None of the 227 training rules were rescinded at the first council..
Venerable. What evidence is there of the above? For example, I am reading the Vinaya now and I find the stories in it (such as about Migalaṇḍika & about the monks from the group of six) difficult to believe. In fact, the language below, using the terms "uppannaṃ" & "pātubhūtaṃ", appears contrary to anything I can find in the suttas:
from the mind’s first appearance in a mother’s womb, from the first manifestation of consciousness, until the time of death: in between these—this is called “a human being.

yaṃ mātukucchismiṃ paṭhamaṃ cittaṃ uppannaṃ paṭhamaṃ viññāṇaṃ pātubhūtaṃ, yāva maraṇakālā etthantare eso manussaviggaho nāma.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pj3/en/brahmali
In fact, my impression is the word "uppannaṃ" means "arising" and is not related to ideas of "rebirth" ("upapanna"), given "uppannaṃ" or "uppajjati" is used to refer to consciousness arising dependent on sense organs & sense objects.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by confusedlayman »

sentinel wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:53 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:48 am
Although the word of the rule only mentions the purchase price of a robe, one can use the four standards to apply it to any requisites that are allowable for monks, from toothpaste, to tickets, or even dwelling places. Donors may also specify the what the fund is to be used for, e.g. buy tickets for the monks to travel to give Dhamma talks wherever they are invited, or provide the monks with medicinal requisites.
Were there any example in Buddha's time where donor informing the monk that s/he donate the money to the monk to be kept by the kapiya for whatever usage . The monk later would inform the kapiya to purchase all type of foods , medicines & supplements , to purchase lands to build temple etc ?
Would it be against the rule if monk instruct the kapiya to use the money to purchase laptop , phone , car , property to be rented out , to keep in the bank to earn interest , to pay for studies or education of non dhammic or not related to dhamma courses and programs , to use the money to travel around etc etc ?

Can a monk setup a Fund to collect money from lay peoples to be used to support future use of monks in four requisites and other necessities ?
Monk can indirectly indicate a 5 precept layman to assist in managing money and contacting construction workers to build and monk can only say to them that building a monestry is good for dhamma on earth and also merit for them but he cant say u should do this like that... he can say indirectly...
Many people building fast boat to reach other side of samsara called nibbana shore...

But it is actually reached " by not travelling, not driving the boat, not moving the mind"

as long as movement of mind is there, then revolve and rotate in samara

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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by polaris »

sentinel wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:56 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:06 pm

In Thailand, the Dhammayut nikāya, and many Thai monks are particular about receiving offerings from women. They always use a receiving cloth. However, there is no need for that. One can simply touch the dish to accept it, and the gift is properly offered. Money is not allowed for monks, but the Dhammayut monks misinterpret this as money should not be touched. They accept money in an envelope. This is daft, and it defeats the entire purpose of the rule.
Bhante , there was a reason behind using the cloth . That supposed to draw a wider distance between monks and womens to prevent accidentally come into contact if they are too near .
The rule of money was said classed as minor rule and can be abolished .
And was said not practical in many countries where almsround are difficult to practice .
If you accidentally touch the hand or hands of a beautiful woman it could arouse your sexual desire in a blink of an eye so to speak.
I wonder how many monks had disrobed because of eye to eye contact that created the spark that lit the fire which went out of control. Just eye to eye contact is enough let alone touching the hand. I am sure some of you had read of a beautiful rich business woman (dealing in beauty products & Estethics) whom a famous senior monk fell in love with and he suddenly disrobed and very quickly married her.
You see monks holding a large fan in front of them when they are chanting in groups in public ceremony, those fans prevent them from accidentally looking at beautiful sexy women in front of them. Some women may be wearing low cut dress with cleavage showing. Those smooth lovely skin irresistible I must say. Can you really immediately meditate on the filth of the putrifying corpse? I think the hormone will work a lot faster than anything . The hormone will overwhelm your rationale thinking. Your hormone hi-jack your nervious system.

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