Is there such a kind of rule ....

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Post Reply
sentinel
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by sentinel »

Is there such a rule in monastic prevents one goes to the toilet till the master finish giving talks ? Is there a rule for the monk to hold up a fan to cover his face when giving talks ?
“The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground.”

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5563
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by Dhammanando »

sentinel wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:42 am
Is there such a rule in monastic prevents one goes to the toilet till the master finish giving talks ? Is there a rule for the monk to hold up a fan to cover his face when giving talks ?
Not in any Indian Vinaya. They sound more like the absurdly ritualistic regulations that you find in the Rule of Baizhang, as used in Chinese Ch'an monasteries. There's an English translation of it here if you want to check.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by sentinel »

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:29 pm

Not in any Indian Vinaya. They sound more like the absurdly ritualistic regulations that you find in the Rule of Baizhang, as used in Chinese Ch'an monasteries. There's an English translation of it here if you want to check.
In this video , it was mentioned by ajahn mudito , when ajahn chah was giving talks , they didnt go to toilets for many hours .




In this video it can be seen behind kneeling monk is a ancient fan , also next to ajahn sumedho is a ancient fan held standing , in another video ajahn hold up the fan in front his face but i could not find that video for now .

“The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground.”

User avatar
Volo
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by Volo »

I remember one Myanmar Sayadaw was asked, why monks sometimes cover their face with a fan while giving a dhamma discourse, he said "Oh, fan is very useful. You can put there a piece of paper with the Dhamma talk written if you cannot remember it!"

binocular
Posts: 7765
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by binocular »

sentinel wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:42 am
Is there such a rule in monastic prevents one goes to the toilet till the master finish giving talks ?
Such a monk would then miss out on the talk of his teacher!


A student not leaving the room while the teacher is giving a lecture used to be standard in schools, for example.
It's also common in many modern workplaces that workers aren't supposed to leave their work station to go to the bathroom during work hours.
Mastering one's toilet needs isn't just for children.
“One man’s “magic” is another man’s engineering. “Supernatural” is a null word.”
- Robert Heinlein

sentinel
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by sentinel »

binocular wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 2:44 pm
It's also common in many modern workplaces that workers aren't supposed to leave their work station to go to the bathroom during work hours.
Mastering one's toilet needs isn't just for children.
Not continuously for 4 or 5 hours . Please watch the video says how many hours for one stretch non stop .
Oh i was just amaze with the endurance someone could hold for 5 or 6 hours continuously in sitting posture especially if lay people that never trained in meditation or they probably force themselves into it if they did do so . They were many lay peoples i knew had knee problems and normally they could not sit straight for 10 minutes without moving .
Last edited by sentinel on Tue May 19, 2020 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground.”

sentinel
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by sentinel »

Volo wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 2:14 pm
I remember one Myanmar Sayadaw was asked, why monks sometimes cover their face with a fan while giving a dhamma discourse, he said "Oh, fan is very useful. You can put there a piece of paper with the Dhamma talk written if you cannot remember it!"
Well , i was hoping someone could come up with a better answer than this . Why cover the face ?
“The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground.”

User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 665
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by Crazy cloud »

sentinel wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:19 pm
Volo wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 2:14 pm
I remember one Myanmar Sayadaw was asked, why monks sometimes cover their face with a fan while giving a dhamma discourse, he said "Oh, fan is very useful. You can put there a piece of paper with the Dhamma talk written if you cannot remember it!"
Well , i was hoping someone could come up with a better answer than this . Why cover the face ?
It prevents the listener to get distracted by form and concentrate on the sound of words. One of the best talks I've ever heard was with a monk who sat with eyes closed while he was holding up a dhamma-scroll with both hands at the level of the torso. I didn't understand the language, but his control of the body and mind for a whole hour was very impressive.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3576
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by Mr Man »

I believe that the fan is held, when giving precepts, to depersonalise.

It might be considered poor etiquette to rise while a teacher is speaking.

sentinel
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by sentinel »

Mr Man wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:46 pm
I believe that the fan is held, when giving precepts, to depersonalise.

It might be considered poor etiquette to rise while a teacher is speaking.
Thanks , this appear reasonable .
“The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground.”

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5563
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by Dhammanando »

sentinel wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:53 pm
In this video , it was mentioned by ajahn mudito , when ajahn chah was giving talks , they didnt go to toilets for many hours .
Ok. I had assumed that your question was about the Buddha's Vinaya, not the slew of Bai Zhang-like extra regulations established in Ajahn Chah monasteries. In the latter a rule like this wouldn't be at all surprising.
sentinel wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:53 pm
In this video it can be seen behind kneeling monk is a ancient fan , also next to ajahn sumedho is a ancient fan held standing , in another video ajahn hold up the fan in front his face but i could not find that video for now .
It's not an ancient fan. It's a modern ceremonial fan that indicates that its owner bears the rank of "chao khun".
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Is there such a kind of rule ....

Post by sentinel »

In this video at 47 min one could see ajahn Sumedho holding the fan cover his face and starting to chant three refuge and give 5 precepts . It seems Burmese monk and Sri Lankan monks also had this type of gesture .

“The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground.”

Post Reply