lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
SteRo
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:44 am
perceiving annata is first stage not final occurance of signless...
"Perceiving annata" is perceiving signs and perceiving signs blocks the signless.
confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:44 am
signless comes only based on 3 charactersitic
No, that is utterly impossible and that might be the cause that there are remnants of signs in what you consider to be signless or emptiness.
If you stick to Therevada approach then there is no way other than that described in MN121 or AN 9.42 to attain perfectly pure emptiness, i.e. the signless.

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confusedlayman
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:56 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:44 am
perceiving annata is first stage not final occurance of signless...
"Perceiving annata" is perceiving signs and perceiving signs blocks the signless.
confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:44 am
signless comes only based on 3 charactersitic
No, that is utterly impossible and that might be the cause that there are remnants of signs in what you consider to be signless or emptiness.
If you stick to Therevada approach then there is no way other than that described in MN121 or AN 9.42 to attain perfectly pure emptiness, i.e. the signless.
It is true that true signless can be attained only in jhana but it is possible to maintain signless when perception not there even outside jhana.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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DooDoot
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:42 am
It is true that true signless can be attained only in jhana but it is possible to maintain signless when perception not there even outside jhana.
Based on the meaning of "sign" you & SteRo appear to be posting, jhana itself is a "sign". Therefore, the idea that true signless can be attained only in jhana sounds like a contradiction.

Returning to the topic, not watching porn, for example, does not require practicing the signless. Abandoning what is unwholesome does not require attaining what is impossible for an unwholesome mind to attain. An unwholesome mind must become wholesome to give up the unwholesome rather than attain supramundane jhanas, the signless, Nibbana, etc, to give up the unwholesome.

Not watching porn merely requires the mundane right view about:

* There are fruits & results of good & bad actions.

* There is this world & the other world.

* There is mother & father.

To the contrary, watching porn is subject to fruits & results of bad actions and the danger, degradation & deprivation of the "other world".
With regard to women who are old enough to be your mother, establish the attitude you would have toward your mother. With regard to women who are old enough to be your sister, establish the attitude you'd have toward a sister. With regard to women who are young enough to be your daughter, establish the attitude you'd have toward a daughter.

SN 35.127
corrupted too with prostitutes—
that’s the way to disaster’s woe.

Snp 1.6
'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

MN 4
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati


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DooDoot
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:18 am
....simetimes not im not sure
sotapanna has no doubt about the path. sotapanna is sure :ugeek:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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confusedlayman
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:35 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:18 am
....simetimes not im not sure
sotapanna has no doubt about the path. sotapanna is sure :ugeek:
i never declared that i am this or that...
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

MettaDevPrac
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by MettaDevPrac »

confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:42 am
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:35 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:18 am
....simetimes not im not sure
sotapanna has no doubt about the path. sotapanna is sure :ugeek:
i never declared that i am this or that...
Who can have/apply supermundane Right View?
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:24 am
... If we apply super mundane right view, then ...
I am quoting out of context because the rest of that post and thread are off topic and a bit complicated; however, link is available for easy review, if needed.
- MettaDevPrac

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confusedlayman
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by confusedlayman »

MettaDevPrac wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:32 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:42 am
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:35 am

sotapanna has no doubt about the path. sotapanna is sure :ugeek:
i never declared that i am this or that...
Who can have/apply supermundane Right View?
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:24 am
... If we apply super mundane right view, then ...
I am quoting out of context because the rest of that post and thread are off topic and a bit complicated; however, link is available for easy review, if needed.
conventionally speaking 4 stage ariyas can have.. ultimately speaking there is process after process without inherant existance yet its not nothingness...
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

MettaDevPrac
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by MettaDevPrac »

I don't think you see the problem.

Nothing else to say for now but, best wishes for you and all beings.
- MettaDevPrac

nmjojola
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by nmjojola »

If you mean to willingly and intentionally participate in such, then that's certainly incompatible with 'trying to attain', literally categorically speaking; however there can be a potential danger here in the invitation to understand this means that the virtue of following precepts lies merely in the act of restraint itself, when we should be ever mindful of where He said the actual problem is, meaning that although doing those things is incompatible with the path, it's not so much the action of doing them is the problem that requires one to find the path in the first place as much as it is that you don't know what those things are, you don't know what you're doing, you literally don't understand what lie'ing is, what porn is, what music is, what games are; because if you did then you'd understand impermanence and not see anything viable or believable as "pleasant" therein, the more you understand them (impermanence) the less you're bound by them and aren't invited to do them (by the mind), for recognition, wisdom, understanding, comprehension, would be present.

It's very common to assess our defilement's after learning about the teaching in a manner like "here is my defilement", but the problem is the teaching is saying we don't know what we're talking about even when we say "such is my defilement" in the first place, because it's the ability to determine for oneself what is wholesome from what is not that defines the stream-winner. The bottom line is when you actually know what your defilements are then you're there at stream-entry, because you'd know what defilement is from what the stainless is.

Summary: Incompatible, only because you cant go from non-understanding them to understanding them while actively participating, and no other reason (for restraint, not that there is no other benefit, but it's literally solely the factor of comprehension that is the distinguishing characteristic of the Buddhas teaching) This is why the Buddhas teaching of 'Awakening' is unique because most traditions and teachings value "the idea" of ethical conduct already, but only the Dhamma offers to show us the significance of the principle of ethics directly and offers a validation point to test it (the dhamma) - your own freedom from suffering.

Doing them is definitely against the path, but that doesn't mean doing them is the issue, the issue is not knowing what they are, and although coming to know what they are is the solution, it's not the goal, it's the method.

Thus alike purification of virtue is not the objective either, release in dispassion is, and it's reached via vision, which can't be had without concentration which can't be done without virtue. It is important to make sure the end and the means are distinguished appropriately and not confused for one another; lest one may become a brazenly unrestrained person who attempts to justify their behavior with claim to attainment of noble fruit on one extreme hand, or a very well restrained person secluded in wilderness or within monastic walls pathetically hoping one of these decades he'll get a taste of nibbana through mere stubborn devotion and wishful thinking on the other.

Sankapparāgo purisassa kāmo
Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Sankapparāgo purisassa kāmo
Titthanti citrāni tath'eva loke
Ath'ettha dhīrā vinayanti chandam. (A. VI,63: iii,411)

Thought and lust are a man's sensuality,
Not the various things in the world;
Thought and lust are a man's sensuality,
The various things just stand there in the world;
But the wise get rid of desire therein.

I personally find this piece powerful to reflect on, thought and lust are NOT the things of the world, they're merely what arises from ignorance about the world.
So the importance of virtue lies in its symbolic concession to the way things are, and understanding this, not merely adhering to it, is our task. Hope this helps.
Last edited by nmjojola on Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:39 am, edited 9 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by DooDoot »

Attaining the Path includes attaining the following Path factor:
And what, bhikkhus, is right intention? Intention of renunciation, intention of non-ill will, intention of harmlessness: this is called right intention.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.8/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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confusedlayman
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by confusedlayman »

MettaDevPrac wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:57 am
I don't think you see the problem.

Nothing else to say for now but, best wishes for you and all beings.
true. i like to get feeling when i hear music .. i am un mindfull but now trying to apply insight while doing
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

SteRo
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:48 am
... but now trying to apply insight while doing
That a pretext because you are not ready to drop it. Don't fool yourself with "to apply insight while doing". it is just because you can't drop doing in the first place such thinking arises. Insight is impossible on the basis of sensual attachment.

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confusedlayman
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Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:05 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:48 am
... but now trying to apply insight while doing
That a pretext because you are not ready to drop it. Don't fool yourself with "to apply insight while doing". it is just because you can't drop doing in the first place such thinking arises. Insight is impossible on the basis of sensual attachment.
how to drop without knwoing whats going on. can u help.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

SteRo
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Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:03 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:05 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:48 am
... but now trying to apply insight while doing
That a pretext because you are not ready to drop it. Don't fool yourself with "to apply insight while doing". it is just because you can't drop doing in the first place such thinking arises. Insight is impossible on the basis of sensual attachment.
how to drop without knwoing whats going on. can u help.
Right concentration is a means to drop attention to objects of the senses
"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities
And in the wake of jhanic awareness insight is possible.

That of course does not relieve you of right resolve: you have the choice whether you keep 'doing' the sense stuff or focus on right concentration.

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