Training in Aversion is wrong

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
MettaDevPrac
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:29 pm
I think you're over complicating things. It's just about creating a more wholesome state of mind, and allowing insight to arise.
There are various methods which can be used, but it's a simple principle.
Four jhanas, four tetrads of anapanasati, four frames of satipatthana, samatha and vipassana, etc.
Various methods, same principle.
I think it can be helpful to examine practices in detail, as various methods are not suitable at all times for all circumstances. But I agree, it's important not to lose sight of the big picture, and essential principle.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

MettaDevPrac wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:26 pm
...

You are talking about countering rāgo greed. I was talking about not cultivating moho hate.
Training in asubhā should not be training in hate or anger. It is simply training to elimnate greed or lust.
:anjali:

I think I agree in some sense.

And,

If trained properly, there is no question of "should not" because it "is not" the training ground to breed literal hate and literal anger, being a literal part of Buddha's instructions in many suttas.

Not just to eliminate raga, it can be used as a means to reach "Jhana".

...
Within the canon, meditation on a dead body is associated with samatha practice.
A mental image (nimitta) arises from a generalized sense of the body, which may
then be used as an object for release from the sense-sphere and for the attainment
of jhana.
...

from - Buddhist Meditation: An anthology of texts from the Pali canon by Sarah Shaw
:heart:
.


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MettaDevPrac
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Not just to eliminate raga, it can be used as a means to reach "Jhana".
Can this be supported by suttas? (Not disagreeing or agreeing, but interested! )
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

MettaDevPrac wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:17 am
Not just to eliminate raga, it can be used as a means to reach "Jhana".
Can this be supported by suttas? (Not disagreeing or agreeing, but interested! )

As quoted in my previous post...
...
Within the canon, meditation on a dead body is associated with samatha practice.
A mental image (nimitta) arises from a generalized sense of the body, which may
then be used as an object for release from the sense-sphere and for the attainment
of jhana.
...

from - Buddhist Meditation: An anthology of texts from the Pali canon by Sarah Shaw
This source document may very well discuss about that:
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... 20Shaw.pdf

______________________________
______________________________

And:

Kāyagatāsati Sutta MN 119
........ White bones, the color of shells … Decrepit bones, heaped in a pile … Bones rotted and crumbled to powder. They’d compare it with their own body: ‘This body is also of that same nature, that same kind, and cannot go beyond that.’ As they meditate like this—diligent, keen, and resolute—memories and thoughts of the lay life are given up. Their mind becomes stilled internally; it settles, unifies, and becomes immersed in samādhi. That too is how a mendicant develops mindfulness of the body.
Furthermore, a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, .........
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  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

MettaDevPrac
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:27 am
MettaDevPrac wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:17 am
Not just to eliminate raga, it can be used as a means to reach "Jhana".
Can this be supported by suttas? (Not disagreeing or agreeing, but interested! )

As quoted in my previous post...
...
Within the canon, meditation on a dead body is associated with samatha practice.
A mental image (nimitta) arises from a generalized sense of the body, which may
then be used as an object for release from the sense-sphere and for the attainment
of jhana.
...

from - Buddhist Meditation: An anthology of texts from the Pali canon by Sarah Shaw
This source document may very well discuss about that:
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... 20Shaw.pdf

______________________________
______________________________

And:

Kāyagatāsati Sutta MN 119
........ White bones, the color of shells … Decrepit bones, heaped in a pile … Bones rotted and crumbled to powder. They’d compare it with their own body: ‘This body is also of that same nature, that same kind, and cannot go beyond that.’ As they meditate like this—diligent, keen, and resolute—memories and thoughts of the lay life are given up. Their mind becomes stilled internally; it settles, unifies, and becomes immersed in samādhi. That too is how a mendicant develops mindfulness of the body.
Furthermore, a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, .........
:heart:
I look forward to reading Sarah Shaw's book in full. Thank you.

As it happens, I wandered on to this:
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.67/en/woodward
in which meditation on the foul (Asubhasaññā) is described in detail, as leading towards Noble states / attainments, as well as to "a great thrill" and to " great pleasantness of living.". This is from Frank Lee Woodward's 2017 translation.

But... Asubha (ugliness, foulness) is not Aversion (dosa). Asubhasaññā cannot rightly be done as cultivating dosa or dosavinayāya, can it?
See AN4.96.

It's exactly this carefulness of words, thoughts, practice, and View, with which I hope we all have success.
I appreciate this discussion.
- MettaDevPrac

SteRo
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by SteRo »

MettaDevPrac wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:42 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:44 pm
Aversion as such is not necessarily wrong if it is directed against the appropriate phenomena. It is the same with desire which is said to be fine if desire is directed towards liberation. That said it might be restriced to cases where aversion arises spontaneously based on insight. However training in aversion might seem to overdo it or to artificially fabriciate what does not arise spontaneously based on ingight.

Spontaneous aversion against the appropriate phenomena migh be the precursor of disenchantment which is a beneficial attainment on the path.
Based on View, Intention develops; basd on Intentions, behaviors manifest. If Views are not Right, wong intentions, wrong behaviors.
Repetition is training, training is practice. It is possible to train and practice based on wrong Views, creating the conditions conducive to movement away from liberation, away from sīla, samādhi, paññā, away from the teachings of the Buddha.
That's right.
MettaDevPrac wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:42 pm
So what does the Buddha teach about aversion? What does the Buddha teach about disenchantment, or (perhaps) about the conditions condusive to detachment arising? What do the suttas say?
Look into the suttas as I did before expounding that aversion as such is not necessarily wrong if it is directed against the appropriate phenomena.
MettaDevPrac wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:42 pm
Let's be careful on this, because aversion can be pleasurable, and in terms of caste-making based on conceits of a Self.
It's the same with desire which is said to be fine if desire is directed towards liberation. And with emptiness which is said to be like a snake: if you seize it wrongly it will bite you. Such are aversion, desire and emptiness.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

MettaDevPrac wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:31 am
...
...

But... Asubha (ugliness, foulness) is not Aversion (dosa). Asubhasaññā cannot rightly be done as cultivating dosa or dosavinayāya, can it?
See AN4.96.

It's exactly this carefulness of words, thoughts, practice, and View, with which I hope we all have success.
I appreciate this discussion.
:anjali:

Agreed.
Again words are mere words.
Aversion may or may not even be dosa.

That said, the power of aversion in quite literal sense cannot be underestimated, when used rightly. This I noticed just recently, thanks to this thread.


AN5.30
  • PTS
    Whosoever is bent on applying himself to the symbol of the unattractive in him disgust for the symbol of the attractive is established; such is the issue of it.
  • Thannissaro B.
    When one is committed to the theme of the unattractive, one takes a stance in the loathsomeness of the theme of beauty: That is one's reward.
  • B. Sujato
    When you pursue meditation on the feature of ugliness, revulsion at the feature of beauty becomes stabilized. This is its outcome
    .
  • B. Bodhi
    (3) For one devoted to practicing meditation on the mark of unattractiveness, revulsion toward the mark of the beautiful becomes established: this is its outcome.



Synonyms for Revulsion:


Dictionary wrote:
  1. aversion
    • 1. a strong dislike or disinclination."they made plain their aversion to the use of force"
  2. revulsion
    • 1. 
a sense of disgust and loathing."news of the attack will be met with sorrow and revulsion"
  3. loathsome
    • 1. causing hatred or disgust; repulsive.
  4. disgust
    • 1. a feeling of revulsion or strong disapproval aroused by something unpleasant or offensive.
:heart:





===================
ps:

This thread makes me more appreciative on:
  • Nibbida ñana - Knowledge of disenchantment/disgust with conditioned states.... , And
  • this teaching by Mogok Sayadaw:
    Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
    Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:34 pm
    ...
    • seeing anicca
      hating anicca
      ending anicca
    ...
.


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MettaDevPrac
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by MettaDevPrac »

:) Alright, friends.
- MettaDevPrac

Laurens
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by Laurens »

I agree with the title of this topic.

When doing the meditation on the parts of the body for instance, the idea is not to develop disgust towards it so that one is repulsed at the sight of bodies. The idea is to understand it as it is, that is made up of skin, flesh, bones, organs and so on. To look at it as one would look at different types of grain, or in other words dispassionately.

Sensual lust, and extreme disgust are both wrong because they are not looking at things the way they are. The reality is the body is how it is, made up of different parts that are not inherently pleasing or horrible.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

MettaDevPrac
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Re: Training in Aversion is wrong

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Laurens wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:51 am
I agree with the title of this topic.

When doing the meditation on the parts of the body for instance, the idea is not to develop disgust towards it so that one is repulsed at the sight of bodies. The idea is to understand it as it is, that is made up of skin, flesh, bones, organs and so on. To look at it as one would look at different types of grain, or in other words dispassionately.

Sensual lust, and extreme disgust are both wrong because they are not looking at things the way they are. The reality is the body is how it is, made up of different parts that are not inherently pleasing or horrible.
:goodpost: Excellent use of the simile of the sacks of the different grains, especially, and The idea is to understand it as it is. It reminded me of the simile of 6 animals.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.247/en/bodhi
And how, bhikkhus, is there restraint? Here, having seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu is not intent upon a pleasing form and not repelled by a displeasing form. He dwells having set up mindfulness of the body, with a measureless mind, and he understands as it really is that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having heard a sound with the ear … Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, he is not intent upon a pleasing mental phenomenon and not repelled by a displeasing mental phenomenon. He dwells having set up mindfulness of the body, with a measureless mind, and he understands as it really is that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. It is in such a way that there is restraint.

“Suppose, bhikkhus, a man would catch six animals—with different domains and different feeding grounds—and tie them by a strong rope. He would catch a snake, a crocodile, a bird, a dog, a jackal, and a monkey, and tie each by a strong rope. Having done so, he would bind them to a strong post or pillar. Then those six animals with different domains and different feeding grounds would each pull in the direction of its own feeding ground and domain. The snake would pull one way, thinking, ‘Let me enter an anthill’ … as above … The monkey would pull another way, thinking, ‘Let me enter a forest.’

“Now when these six animals become worn out and fatigued, they would stand close to that post or pillar, they would sit down there, they would lie down there. So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu has developed and cultivated mindfulness directed to the body, the eye does not pull in the direction of agreeable forms nor are disagreeable forms repulsive; the ear does not pull in the direction of agreeable sounds nor are disagreeable sounds repulsive; the nose does not pull in the direction of agreeable odours nor are disagreeable odours repulsive; the tongue does not pull in the direction of agreeable tastes nor are disagreeable tastes repulsive; the body does not pull in the direction of agreeable tactile objects nor are disagreeable tactile objects repulsive; the mind does not pull in the direction of agreeable mental phenomena nor are disagreeable mental phenomena repulsive.

“It is in such a way that there is restraint.
That sutta describes non-restraint also:
“And how, bhikkhus is there nonrestraint? Here, having seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu is intent upon a pleasing form and repelled by a displeasing form. He dwells without having set up mindfulness of the body, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it really is that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder.
The sutta ends with advice for practice regarding the 6 sense basis (or fields):
“‘A strong post or pillar’: this, bhikkhus, is a designation for mindfulness directed to the body. Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: ‘We will develop and cultivate mindfulness directed to the body, make it our vehicle, make it our basis, stabilize it, exercise ourselves in it, and fully perfect it.’ Thus should you train yourselves.”
- MettaDevPrac

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