What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
sentinel
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What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by sentinel »

This is referring to bhikkhu precept , isn't the karma of killing is heavier than breaking the sexual abstention precept ?
Last edited by sentinel on Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by Sam Vara »

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:26 pm
This is referring to bhikkhu precept , isn't killing karma is heavier than sexual activity ?
Maybe it's to do with likelihood and the frequency of temptation?

sentinel
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by sentinel »

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:28 pm
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:26 pm
This is referring to bhikkhu precept , isn't killing karma is heavier than sexual activity ?
Maybe it's to do with likelihood and the frequency of temptation?
Isn't male sangha and female sangha living separately ? And lay people are supposed to distant themselves from monastic community if not attending to dhamma activities ?
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by Sam Vara »

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:30 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:28 pm
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:26 pm
This is referring to bhikkhu precept , isn't killing karma is heavier than sexual activity ?
Maybe it's to do with likelihood and the frequency of temptation?
Isn't male sangha and female sangha living separately ? And lay people are supposed to distant themselves from monastic community if not attending to dhamma activities ?
Well, it's just a guess on my part. But the vinaya has quite a lot on the correct way to behave around women, and there is also the fact that young men might be expected to have sexual thoughts far more often than they have murderously violent ones... :shrug:

chownah
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by chownah »

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:30 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:28 pm
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:26 pm
This is referring to bhikkhu precept , isn't killing karma is heavier than sexual activity ?
Maybe it's to do with likelihood and the frequency of temptation?
Isn't male sangha and female sangha living separately ? And lay people are supposed to distant themselves from monastic community if not attending to dhamma activities ?
The latest monastic sex scandal in thailand was older monks raping the new initiates....maybe you haven't heard of this kind of sex....it is called "homosexual" sex.
chownah

sentinel
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by sentinel »

chownah wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:20 pm
The latest monastic sex scandal in thailand was older monks raping the new initiates....maybe you haven't heard of this kind of sex....it is called "homosexual" sex.
chownah
Yes I am unaware of it . But this does not answer the question . Is there a reason to place it at top ?
For lay people precepts , killing topping number one seat . It seems lay people committing far more adultery than comparing to sexual activity in monastic community . Penalty for killing a human life seems heavier than sexual misconduct even in secular world .
Probably , bhante could help to explain .
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by SteRo »

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:26 pm
... isn't the karma of killing is heavier than breaking the sexual abstention precept ?
The 'weight' of karma depends on the activity as such and on accumulations of activities. Sexual abstention not only refers to bodily sexual activity. The accumulated weight through the continuous activity of thinking about sex must not be ignored.
It is commonly accepted that sexual desire is a common instinct whereas the desire to kill isn't a common instinct.

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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by Dhammanando »

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:26 pm
This is referring to bhikkhu precept , isn't the karma of killing is heavier than breaking the sexual abstention precept ?
Within any particular class of offence there's no reason to think that the order in which the rules are listed is meant to reflect the kammic weightiness of transgressing them.

In the saṅghādisesas, for example, masturbation is listed before initiating a schism in the sangha, despite the latter being an anantariyaka-kamma. In the nissaggiya-pācittiyas, keeping an extra robe for more than ten days is listed before accepting money or causing a gift that was intended for the sangha to be given to oneself. In the pācittiyas, digging the earth is listed before intentionally killing an animal or beating up a fellow bhikkhu.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by sentinel »

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:35 pm

Within any particular class of offence there's no reason to think that the order in which the rules are listed is meant to reflect the kammic weightiness of transgressing them.

In the saṅghādisesas, for example, masturbation is listed before initiating a schism in the sangha, despite the latter being an anantariyaka-kamma. In the nissaggiya-pācittiyas, keeping an extra robe for more than ten days is listed before accepting money or causing a gift that was intended for the sangha to be given to oneself. In the pācittiyas, digging the earth is listed before intentionally killing an animal or beating up a fellow bhikkhu.
Thanks bhante dhammanando .
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frank k
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by frank k »

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:26 pm
This is referring to bhikkhu precept , isn't the karma of killing is heavier than breaking the sexual abstention precept ?
Sexual misconduct is probably listed #1 because it's the most tempting and likely one to be broken.
Whereas virtuous people have a strong resistance to killing, and don't really need a reminder to 'not kill' as urgently as not commit sexual misconduct.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

The Vinaya rules were laid down only when they were needed, so the first rule of sexual intercourse was based on events that occurred before the second, third, and fourth offences of defeat.

Similarly, the event of Seyyasaka masturbating presumably occurred before the event of Udāyin engaging in lustful bodily contact with a woman, so that is the first rule, while the latter is the second, etc. Rule 10 for striving to cause a schism was obviously laid down before rule 11 for supporting a schism.
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by DooDoot »

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:26 pm
This is referring to bhikkhu precept , isn't the karma of killing is heavier than breaking the sexual abstention precept ?
Sexual desire is the major obstacle to enlightenment. Its pretty straightforward.

For most, killing people is not an obstacle because they don't habitually do it.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pulsar
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by Pulsar »

Ven Dahmmanando, thanks for laying out the rationale behind the listing
of Vinaya rules. You wrote
Within any particular class of offence there's no reason to think that the order in which the rules are listed is meant to reflect the kammic weightiness of transgressing them.....

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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by Pulsar »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote
"The Vinaya rules were laid down only when they were needed"
Thank you,
the way the rules piled up over time, while Buddha was very much alive, goes to show, or is a stark indicator
of what was in store, after he was gone.
But such is the way of things, we have to be thankful to those who have kept the flame alive,
amidst rampant corruption. :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pulsar
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Re: What is the reason sexual abstinence ranking number 1 ?

Post by Pulsar »

Chownah wrote
The latest monastic sex scandal in thailand was older monks raping the new initiates....maybe you haven't heard of this kind of sex....it is called "homosexual" sex.
chownah
I hear, it is not limited to Thailand. ....ways of samsara.
:candle:

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