about 3rd precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Ceisiwr
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Re: about 3rd precept

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:40 pm Having consent sex except ur wife is only allowed for sotapanna or 5 precept layman.

if u not married and have any kids of sexual activity with any women, then u broke the precept and might go lower realm if u dont take necassary action.
That isn’t the Buddha’s teaching.
“Accomplished in the four right efforts,
mindfulness meditation is your territory;
adorned with the flowers of liberation,
you’ll realize quenching without defilements.”


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Ceisiwr
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Re: about 3rd precept

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Dorian wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:38 pm By the way, I have a question about the third precept as well. What does 'those protected by their parents' (one is not allowed to have sexual relationship with such people) mean? Does it mean that your partner should have reached the age of consent (which is obvious, I guess)?
Some Buddhists view it that way. Some others view it to mean that a woman is always under the guardianship of her parents until she is married.
“Accomplished in the four right efforts,
mindfulness meditation is your territory;
adorned with the flowers of liberation,
you’ll realize quenching without defilements.”


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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: about 3rd precept

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Sex is unwholesome
Sex affects jhanas, which is against Right Concentration
Sex comes from a craving, which is against the 8NP

3rd precept from the 5 precepts is a mere convention. If you really want to progress on the path, quit all sexual stimuli, adhering to the 8 precepts.
Not neglecting seclusion, absorption,
constantly living the Dhamma
in line with the Dhamma,
comprehending the danger
in states of becoming,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
SN 1.3
Image
Lust is a maker of nimittas, hate is a maker of nimittas, delusion is a maker of nimittas.
Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo. (MN 43, SN 41.7)
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: about 3rd precept

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Do Not Judge Others.

Migasālā's father and grandfather both attained Tusita heaven and were declared as Once-returners by the Blessed One. One was celibate, the other was not.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: about 3rd precept

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Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:34 pm Do Not Judge Others.

Migasālā's father and grandfather both attained Tusita heaven and were declared as Once-returners by the Blessed One. One was celibate, the other was not.

So, what to conclude from that fact?
I expect a non sequitur.
Not neglecting seclusion, absorption,
constantly living the Dhamma
in line with the Dhamma,
comprehending the danger
in states of becoming,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
SN 1.3
Image
Lust is a maker of nimittas, hate is a maker of nimittas, delusion is a maker of nimittas.
Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo. (MN 43, SN 41.7)
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Re: about 3rd precept

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:41 pm So, what to conclude from that fact?
The grandfather did not lead a celibate life, but progressed just as well as his son, who was celibate. So, if you really want to progress on the path, celibacy is not essential.
“Here, Ānanda, a certain individual is very lustful. He knows the liberation of the mind and the liberation by wisdom as it really is, where that lust ceases without remainder. He has listened [to the teachings], is learned, has penetrated them with view, and has gained temporary liberation. On the break-up of the body after death he is heading for distinction, not to degradation; is going to distinction, not to degradation. (6)
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: about 3rd precept

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:04 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:41 pm So, what to conclude from that fact?
The grandfather did not lead a celibate life, but progressed just as well as his son, who was celibate. So, if you really want to progress on the path, celibacy is not essential.
“Here, Ānanda, a certain individual is very lustful. He knows the liberation of the mind and the liberation by wisdom as it really is, where that lust ceases without remainder. He has listened [to the teachings], is learned, has penetrated them with view, and has gained temporary liberation. On the break-up of the body after death he is heading for distinction, not to degradation; is going to distinction, not to degradation. (6)
Don't you think this can be misleading?
Not neglecting seclusion, absorption,
constantly living the Dhamma
in line with the Dhamma,
comprehending the danger
in states of becoming,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
SN 1.3
Image
Lust is a maker of nimittas, hate is a maker of nimittas, delusion is a maker of nimittas.
Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo. (MN 43, SN 41.7)
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DooDoot
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Re: about 3rd precept

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buddho99 wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:22 am cultural/religion reason.
the reason would not be cultural or religious. the reason would be 'dhammic', that is, related to the optimal well-being & minimization of suffering & problems. in buddhism, the matter of "sila" ("morality") is unrelatd to culture or religion but is always about "non-harming" and preventing degradation & falling into the lower realms. the suttas say:
.... the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
:alien:
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:07 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:40 pm if u not married....
That isn’t the Buddha’s teaching.
Where do the suttas ever refer to sex outside of marriage as wholesome? thanks :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: about 3rd precept

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

I beg your pardon, Bhante, but I think your conclusion from that sutta is non sequitur.
It even creates breaches to regard other things as 'not essential'. If the greatest fetter should be neglected that way, what to say about minor cravings? :|

I read it and the only concrete conclusion I take from it is that we can't make assumptions about others' attainment. Just that. Period.
Like I said in other thread, a sotapanna can act with lust since he has not broken the sensual fetter yet. SO CAN a sakadagami. The fetter was reduced but is still there.
I would be surprised if the sutta talked about an anagami. :redherring:
Not neglecting seclusion, absorption,
constantly living the Dhamma
in line with the Dhamma,
comprehending the danger
in states of becoming,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
SN 1.3
Image
Lust is a maker of nimittas, hate is a maker of nimittas, delusion is a maker of nimittas.
Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo. (MN 43, SN 41.7)
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DooDoot
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Re: about 3rd precept

Post by DooDoot »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:34 pmDo Not Judge Others.
Venerable. I have known of this sutta for many years (from the old BPS Anthology) but have never read it before. The sutta is questionable to me because it appears to say a once-returner can be "very lustful" ("tibbarāgo"); which is contrary to the actual definition of a "once-returner", namely, "thinness/diminution (tanuttā) of lust".
tibba

(mfn.) strong; severe, intense; sharp, acute;

https://suttacentral.net/define/tibba
tanutta

thinness; diminution; reduction.

https://suttacentral.net/define/tanutta
AN 10.75 wrote:Here, Ānanda, a certain individual is immoral (dussīlo) ... is very lustful (tibbarāgo) ... is very angry.... very distracted. He knows the liberation of the mind and the liberation by wisdom as it really is, where that ceases without remainder.

If Purāṇa were endowed with the kind of wisdom (paññāya) possessed by Isidatta, Ānanda, Isidatta would not know his destination.
Since the term "tibbarāgo" in the suttas appears generally used in a very unwholesomely context, it appears it would be a very rare individual who could be "tibbarāgo" yet know liberation. It appears against the Norm. :geek:
Dhp 349 wrote:Vitakkamathitassa jantuno, Tibbarāgassa subhānupassino; Bhiyyo taṇhā pavaḍḍhati, Esa kho daḷhaṃ karoti bandhanaṃ.

Vitakkūpasame ca yo rato, Asubhaṃ bhāvayate sadā sato; Esa kho byanti kāhiti, Esa checchati mārabandhanaṃ.

For a person tormented by evil thoughts, who is passion-dominated and given to the pursuit of pleasure, his craving steadily grows. He makes the fetter strong, indeed.

He who delights in subduing evil thoughts, who meditates on the impurities and is ever mindful—it is he who will make an end of craving and rend asunder Mara’s fetter.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp334-359/en/buddharakkhita
AN 5.230 wrote:This is a female’s venom:
Tatridaṃ, bhikkhave, mātugāmassa ghoravisatā—

usually she’s very lustful.
yebhuyyena, bhikkhave, mātugāmo tibbarāgo.

This is a female’s forked tongue:
Tatridaṃ, bhikkhave, mātugāmassa dujjivhatā—

usually she speaks divisively.
yebhuyyena, bhikkhave, mātugāmo pisuṇavāco.

This is a female’s treachery:
Tatridaṃ, bhikkhave, mātugāmassa mittadubbhitā—

usually she’s an adulteress.
yebhuyyena, bhikkhave, mātugāmo aticārinī.

These are the five drawbacks of a female.
Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca ādīnavā mātugāme”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.230/en/sujato


Note: Venerable. Your translation has not translated paññāya but says:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:34 pmYathārūpāya cānanda, paññāya isidatto samannāgato ahosi tathārūpāya paññāya purāṇo samannāgato abhavissa, nayidha isidatto purāṇassa gatimpi aññassa.

If Purāṇa were endowed with the kind of morality possessed by Isidatta, Ānanda, Isidatta would not know his destination.

Do Not Judge Others.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Re: about 3rd precept

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:37 pm Note: Venerable. Your translation has not translated paññāya but says:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:34 pmYathārūpāya cānanda, paññāya isidatto samannāgato ahosi tathārūpāya paññāya purāṇo samannāgato abhavissa, nayidha isidatto purāṇassa gatimpi aññassa.

If Purāṇa were endowed with the kind of morality possessed by Isidatta, Ānanda, Isidatta would not know his destination.
Thanks. I have corrected that oversight. The translation of tibbarāga is OK, I think. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates it as "strongly prone to lust," where I use "very lustful." It does not seem worth quibbling about, but I may change it if I can think of something more appropriate.
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Re: about 3rd precept

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:10 pm Where do the suttas ever refer to sex outside of marriage as wholesome? thanks :shrug:
They don't. Nor do they call sex inside marriage 'wholesome'. In the suttas no sexual acts of any sort are ever called wholesome. In relation to sex 'wholesome' is applied only to certain acts of sexual abstention —with inappropriate partners in the case of 5-precept-observers; with anyone at all in the case of 8-precept-observers— not to any act of sexual indulgence.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta
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Re: about 3rd precept

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Dhammanando wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:06 amThey don't. Nor do they call sex inside marriage 'wholesome'. In the suttas no sexual acts of any sort are ever called wholesome. In relation to sex 'wholesome' is applied only to certain acts of sexual abstention —with inappropriate partners in the case of 5-precept-observers; with anyone at all in the case of 8-precept-observers— not to any act of sexual indulgence.
OK. Thank you. Upon reflection, I won't disagree with the above in relation to the use of the word 'wholesome'. This said, i have not read an account in the suttas were coupled lay followers of the buddha were not husbands & wives.
At one time the Buddha was wandering in the land of the Kosalans together with a large Saṅgha of mendicants when he arrived at a village of the Kosalan brahmins named Bamboo Gate.

We wish to live at home with our children; to use sandalwood imported from Kāsi; to wear garlands, perfumes, and makeup; and to accept gold and money. And when our body breaks up, after death, we wish to be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.

Given that we have such wishes, may the Buddha teach us the Dhamma so that we may achieve them.

The Buddha said this: “And what is the explanation of the Dhamma that’s relevant to oneself?

A noble disciple reflects: ‘If someone were to have sexual relations with my wives, I wouldn’t like it. But if I were to have sexual relations with someone else’s wives, he wouldn’t like that either.

https://suttacentral.net/sn55.7/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: about 3rd precept

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot
Where do the suttas ever refer to sex outside of marriage as wholesome? thanks :shrug:
I'm not aware of where the suttas refer to sex as being wholesome in general. My understanding is that for those who are going to have sex it should be done in such a way that it does not cause harm to oneself or others, that does not lead to the generation of weighty unwholesome kamma or causes conflict to arise. If a couple live in a society where long-term co-habitation is recognised as being a valid form of a committed relationship and they do not cheat, they respect each other etc then I do not see how their sex is unwholesome despite not being married. I don't see how the lack of a ceremony means that their sex life and relationship is not as wholesome as a couple who has had a ceremony and that by not having a marriage ceremony they are going to one of the hell realms.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Accomplished in the four right efforts,
mindfulness meditation is your territory;
adorned with the flowers of liberation,
you’ll realize quenching without defilements.”


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Re: about 3rd precept

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Dhammanando wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:06 am
DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:10 pm Where do the suttas ever refer to sex outside of marriage as wholesome? thanks :shrug:
They don't. Nor do they call sex inside marriage 'wholesome'. In the suttas no sexual acts of any sort are ever called wholesome. In relation to sex 'wholesome' is applied only to certain acts of sexual abstention —with inappropriate partners in the case of 5-precept-observers; with anyone at all in the case of 8-precept-observers— not to any act of sexual indulgence.
Thinking about sex thoughts or having imaginary sex or lust without masturbrating is 5 precept or 8 precept or 227 precept break? Or it goes afer anagami ?
Last edited by confusedlayman on Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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