Ariṭṭha!? What sutta come to mind when you read this?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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bhante dhamma
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Ariṭṭha!? What sutta come to mind when you read this?

Post by bhante dhamma » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:13 am

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/ge ... llegations

I was wondering what sutta if any cAme to.mimd when reading the article? Are there any sutta quotes you can come up with of relevance to the story? PS it would be more kusal'ānudhammic if hassa-joking, makkha -contempt, denigration, self righteousness, conceit, views etc could be avoided in the ensuing discussion.

Background...

Famous Canadian monk Phra Julien Apataro, who had spent almost 20 years living as a monk on a remote hillside in the Sop Moei district of Mae Hong Son province, admitted on a televised news show on Friday to having had sexual relations with women.

Apologising to Thai people over his alleged serious monastic indiscipline, the monk, in his early 40s, whose layman name is Julien Desilets, told Channel 3’s Thiangwan Tan Hetkarn (News Updates at Noon) that he would leave the monkhood in a ceremony presided over by his preceptor monk on Saturday (August 10).

Mae Hong Son’s ecclesiastical provincial governor Phra Sumonsatsanakij pointed out that if Phra Julien had committed the serious monastic indiscipline as reportedly confessed by him, he must be disrobed at the original temple where he had been ordained. He said the monk’s alleged actions tarnish the religion. Apparently Phra Julien had been ordained at a temple in Chiang Mai province's Hot district, hence the ceremony must be held by his preceptor monk there, the senior monk explained. He said he had already assigned the Sop Moei ecclesiastical chief to launch a fact-finding mission into the scandal.

Phra Julien first came to Thailand at age 18 as a Canadian exchange student who specialised in agricultural studies and became interested in practising meditation. He returned to Thailand in 1998 and then practised the Eight Precept principle on his own in Thailand for a year. After being ordained a monk in 2000, he resided in Sop Moei where villagers built a small monastery for him in the Phutha Kareni village in tambon Mae Sam Laeb. He lived modestly, eating fruit and vegetables and would collect alms twice a week because he did not wish to burden the poor villagers who already faced hardship.

His story – of a western monk living in rural Thai area -- was publicised by foreign media as well as Thailand’s popular "Khon Khon Khon" TV programme several years ago.

Social activist and veterinarian Somchai Sirithepsongklod, who exposed the scandal via his recent posts on Facebook along with photographic evidence of a white-clad man resembling Phra Julien standing next to a Swiss woman during their alleged “honeymoon trip” in Chanthaburi province five years ago, insisted that the accused had engaged in sexual relations while he was still a monk. He added that the woman had unsuccessfully complained about the monk’s alleged misconduct to various organisations but none paid heed to her until the story reached Somchai, who posted it on Facebook. This brought criticism from Thai netizens over the monk’s alleged misconduct.

Source: https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30374563
Last edited by bhante dhamma on Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Ariṭṭha sex scandal 2019

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:06 am

This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality & dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the calming of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana.

MN 26
Obviously, the monk engaged in sexual intercourse due to natural strong lust. Keep in mind, our entire living natural physical world is born from lust. Lust is, essentially, 'God'. However, once inwardly defeated, the monk probably succumbed to social & religious pressure to remain a monk & not face public defeat. It was probably his position as a famous public monk that resulted in him hiding his need for & indulgence in sex for so long. He probably did not want to disappoint his followers. Like most pop stars, the fans & groupies contribute to their demise. He probably enjoyed being treated as a 'God' by the public. My impression is many famous monks have no 'viveka' ('mental solitude') whatsoever and their life as a monk is about the feelings they accrue from the public adulation they receive.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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bhante dhamma
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Re: Ariṭṭha!? What sutta come to mind when you read this?

Post by bhante dhamma » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:27 am

Indeed....dāruṇo bhikkhave lābhasakkārasiloko kaṭuko pharuso antarāyiko....Bhikkhus, dreadful are gain, honour, and praise, bitter, vile, obstructive

But to give the thread some balance before the diṭṭhis go any further in the direction of dosa, may I/we express mudita for the almost 20 years in robes (90% of which was not parajika) both in the realm of personal citta bhāvanā and anuggaha Dāna.

"...Above all, it is not on us to judge or criticize the individual. As long as we are still on the path, we are all subject to the risk of making the same or similar mistake.."

Two suttas quoted

M 26 ..nivāpa
But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality & dependent co-arising are hard to see
....
Bhikkhus, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning: ‘Bait’ is a term for the five cords of sensual pleasure. ‘Deer-trapper’ is a term for Māra the Evil One. ‘The deer-trapper’s following’ is a term for Māra’s following. ‘Deer herd’ is a term for recluses and brahmins.
SN 17.. lābha-sakkāra-siloka-
“Bhikkhus, dreadful are gain, honour, and praise, bitter, vile, obstructive

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Sam Vara
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Re: Ariṭṭha!? What sutta come to mind when you read this?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:34 am

I wonder how the ex-monk regards and feels about his trangression. In MN 22, Arittha's transgression is the holding of a wrong view regarding sexual activity, and we are not told whether he himself actually engaged in proscribed practices. Desilets apparently did engage in them, but his show of repentance and acquiescence in the disrobing ceremony is evidence that he acknowledges wrongdoing, and that he does not challenge the Buddha's proscription. Usually, when we fall in this manner we are ashamed and contrite afterwards. Desilets agreeing to a photograph with his sexual partner is interesting. It might be part of a deeper reasoned challenge to the vinaya - ("I can manage both roles!") as per Arittha; or it might just be part of the secular ritual of seduction.

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Bundokji
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Re: Ariṭṭha!? What sutta come to mind when you read this?

Post by Bundokji » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:58 am

Let none find fault with others; let none see the omissions and commissions of others. But let one see one's own acts, done and undone.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

binocular
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Re: Ariṭṭha!? What sutta come to mind when you read this?

Post by binocular » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:27 pm

bhante dhamma wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:13 am
I was wondering what sutta if any cAme to.mimd when reading the article? Are there any sutta quotes you can come up with of relevance to the story?
he falters, faints, doesn't steel himself

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And further from the same sutta:
[5] "Then there is the case of the monk who can handle the cloud of dust, the top of the enemy's banner, the tumult, & hand-to-hand combat. On winning the battle, victorious in battle, he comes out at the very head of the battle. What is victory in the battle for him? There is the case of the monk who has gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling. A woman approaches him and sits down right next to him, lies down right next to him, throws herself all over him. When she sits down right next to him, lies down right next to him, and throws herself all over him, he extricates himself, frees himself, and goes off where he will.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Ariṭṭha!? What sutta come to mind when you read this?

Post by binocular » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:48 pm

bhante dhamma wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:13 am
Social activist and veterinarian Somchai Sirithepsongklod, who exposed the scandal via his recent posts on Facebook along with photographic evidence of a white-clad man resembling Phra Julien standing next to a Swiss woman during their alleged “honeymoon trip” in Chanthaburi province five years ago, insisted that the accused had engaged in sexual relations while he was still a monk. He added that the woman had unsuccessfully complained about the monk’s alleged misconduct to various organisations but none paid heed to her until the story reached Somchai, who posted it on Facebook. This brought criticism from Thai netizens over the monk’s alleged misconduct.

Source: https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30374563
This is strange in so many ways.
So many unknowns.

Unless he went out of his way and raped her, she is not innocent in the matter.
If she knew that he was a monk, then what was she doing with him, presumably in private??
But if he first lied to her about being a monk and dressed as a lay man ... did he?

Just because lay people are by default considered as committed to sensuality, doesn't make them innocent in such ... scandals.


In literature, there is actually a genre/theme "woman seduces a monk". It can be found in cheap novels, but also in academic literary works. The story from the OP generally fits that genre, except that it really happened.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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