What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Akashad
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What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Akashad » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:34 am

Hello,

I've been trying to compile a list of karma vipaka to help me keep the precepts better but I can't seem to find much information about what results from lying.I recently had a situation happen at work where where I flat out lied to someone and I feel physically sick.I don't have the habit of lying,not even half truths or for good intention I just don't say anything or change the subject cause I find every time I lie I feel so jumbled and deconstructed I don't know if that makes any sense..and to hear the words coming out of my mouth that I know for myself are not true is just causing a lot of sleepless nights and I feel split if that makes sense.I can't concentrate and feel physically nauseous.I wish to learn the vipaka or consequence of lying such as anger produces ugliness,not harming living being produces long life.If anybody knows please let me know.Thanks for your help. :reading:

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:39 am

You are asking something that we cannot know directly yet (I assume). From my knowledge of the suttas lying = bad kamma, so you will suffer for it although the severity can vary. My advice would to be acknowledge what happened, reflect upon the bad kamma and be mindful so you can bare the results with greater ease and prevent such action in the future. Perhaps you got lucky in a way and your negative feelings about it are the result of the kamma and so it’s worn out?

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Sam Vara
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:03 am

Akashad wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:34 am
Hello,

I've been trying to compile a list of karma vipaka to help me keep the precepts better but I can't seem to find much information about what results from lying.I recently had a situation happen at work where where I flat out lied to someone and I feel physically sick.I don't have the habit of lying,not even half truths or for good intention I just don't say anything or change the subject cause I find every time I lie I feel so jumbled and deconstructed I don't know if that makes any sense..and to hear the words coming out of my mouth that I know for myself are not true is just causing a lot of sleepless nights and I feel split if that makes sense.I can't concentrate and feel physically nauseous.I wish to learn the vipaka or consequence of lying such as anger produces ugliness,not harming living being produces long life.If anybody knows please let me know.Thanks for your help. :reading:
It might be that one of the consequences of lying is that it makes one far more prone to commit other harmful acts, depending on how this particular verse is read and understood:
This was said by the Lord...

"Bhikkhus, I say that for an individual who transgresses in one thing, there is no evil deed whatsoever he would not do. What is that one thing? It is this, bhikkhus: deliberately telling a lie."


There is no evil that cannot be done
By a person who deliberately lies,
Who transgresses in one thing,
Taking no account of the next world.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#iti-025

It isn't supported by a sutta reference, but I like this account from Bhikkhu Bodhi:
It is said that in the course of his long training for enlightenment over many lives, a bodhisatta can break all the moral precepts except the pledge to speak the truth. The reason for this is very profound, and reveals that the commitment to truth has a significance transcending the domain of ethics and even mental purification, taking us to the domains of knowledge and being. Truthful speech provides, in the sphere of interpersonal communication, a parallel to wisdom in the sphere of private understanding. The two are respectively the outward and inward modalities of the same commitment to what is real. Wisdom consists in the realization of truth, and truth (sacca) is not just a verbal proposition but the nature of things as they are. To realize truth our whole being has to be brought into accord with actuality, with things as they are, which requires that in communications with others we respect things as they are by speaking the truth. Truthful speech establishes a correspondence between our own inner being and the real nature of phenomena, allowing wisdom to rise up and fathom their real nature. Thus, much more than an ethical principle, devotion to truthful speech is a matter of taking our stand on reality rather than illusion, on the truth grasped by wisdom rather than the fantasies woven by desire.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... d.html#ch4

"Taking our stand on reality rather than illusion" seem to be more powerfully inspirational than a concern about the consequences of particular acts.

Regarding the situation you experienced at work, I would say that you are very fortunate indeed to have such a sensitivity and reaction to lying.

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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:07 am

Sorry, I don't have time now to find the sutta references for the below. Kind regards :smile:
Bhikkhus, musavada (false speech) that is thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta (hungry ghost) realms. The result of false speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to false claims of ownership (regarding ones possessions).

Bhikkhus, pisunavada (divisive speech) thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the divisive speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to breaking with friends.

Bhikkhus, pharusavada (coarse speech) thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the coarse speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to hearing unpleasant sounds.

Bhikkhus, samphappalapavada (frivolous speech) that is thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the frivolous speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to speech that nobody believes.
(Amusavada:) A person gives up false speech, strictly abstains from false speech, speaks only the truth, protects honesty, is secure in his words, is believable, and has no intention to deceive the world.

(Apisunavada:) A person gives up divisive words, strictly abstains from divisive words. Having heard something from this party, one does not take it over to tell that party so that they will break with this party; or having heard from that party, one does not take it to tell this party so that they will break with that party; but will unite people who have broken up and return them to concord, will support people who are in concord so they will be even more harmonious. Is a person who likes harmony, who delights in harmony, who is content with concord, and speaks only words that cause concord.

(Apharusavada:) A person gives up speaking crude words, abstains fully from speaking crude words, and speaks only speech that is blameless, is sweet to the ear, causes love, is inspiring, is the polite speech of city-folk, is satisfying to the many. He speaks only that sort of speech.

(Asamphappalapavada:) A person gives up frivolous speech, strictly abstains from frivolous speech; and speaks only at the proper time; speaks only true words that are beneficial, are Dhamma, and are Vinaya; speaks only words that have a basis, a foundation of reference, and an ending time, that are beneficial and fit the situation.
Bhikkhus, words having these five characteristics are words well-spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize. What are these five characteristics? The five are:

spoken at the proper time
spoken in line with the truth
spoken gently
spoken beneficially
spoken with a friendly heart

(Kalena bhasita hoti)
(Sacca bhasita hoti)
(Sanha bhasita hoti)
(Atthasanhita bhasita hoti)
(Mettacittena bhasita hoti)

Bhikkhus, speech having these five characteristics are words well-spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize.
More here: http://pintojukjun.blogspot.com/2011/09 ... QSYchYzZnI
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:08 am

O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Akashad
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Akashad » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:39 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:03 am

It isn't supported by a sutta reference, but I like this account from Bhikkhu Bodhi:
To realize truth our whole being has to be brought into accord with actuality,
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... d.html#ch4
Bhikku Boddhi really said something that rings true to me, it wasn't in accordance with the universe.It didn't fit.something does not fit. It's hard for me to explain but it's like when you make up a false world and try to exist in the same universe as the real world and the universe rejects it.I suppose if I were a character In a science fiction movie and I told a lie people would see glitches and I'd start disintegrating.Always had this feeling of being deconstructed or jumbled like a robot getting their words mixed up or glitches when I lie and it has more to do with no being in accordance with the universe, not being one with the universe, not being a reflection of the universe, than it has with feelings of guilt or sin which I feel for other precepts I break.The truth feels like a mirror and if it's not reflected then there's a glitch somewhere which causes all this weird bizarre,off, alternate reality feelings I go through when I tell a lie

Also I agree when you break one precept your not as sensitive and you break other precepts,it's quite alarming to see it happen,things that you never thought you'd do your doing it now like it's the new normal is quite alarming and a wake up call that the sensitivity meter is off it's course.🙏

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Akashad
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Akashad » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:07 am
Sorry, I don't have time now to find the sutta references for the below. Kind regards :smile:
Bhikkhus, musavada (false speech) that is thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta (hungry ghost) realms. The result of false speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to false claims of ownership (regarding ones possessions).

Bhikkhus, pisunavada (divisive speech) thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the divisive speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to breaking with friends.

Bhikkhus, pharusavada (coarse speech) thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the coarse speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to hearing unpleasant sounds.

Bhikkhus, samphappalapavada (frivolous speech) that is thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the frivolous speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to speech that nobody believes.
(Amusavada:) A person gives up false speech, strictly abstains from false speech, speaks only the truth, protects honesty, is secure in his words, is believable, and has no intention to deceive the world.

(Apisunavada:) A person gives up divisive words, strictly abstains from divisive words. Having heard something from this party, one does not take it over to tell that party so that they will break with this party; or having heard from that party, one does not take it to tell this party so that they will break with that party; but will unite people who have broken up and return them to concord, will support people who are in concord so they will be even more harmonious. Is a person who likes harmony, who delights in harmony, who is content with concord, and speaks only words that cause concord.

(Apharusavada:) A person gives up speaking crude words, abstains fully from speaking crude words, and speaks only speech that is blameless, is sweet to the ear, causes love, is inspiring, is the polite speech of city-folk, is satisfying to the many. He speaks only that sort of speech.

(Asamphappalapavada:) A person gives up frivolous speech, strictly abstains from frivolous speech; and speaks only at the proper time; speaks only true words that are beneficial, are Dhamma, and are Vinaya; speaks only words that have a basis, a foundation of reference, and an ending time, that are beneficial and fit the situation.
Bhikkhus, words having these five characteristics are words well-spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize. What are these five characteristics? The five are:

spoken at the proper time
spoken in line with the truth
spoken gently
spoken beneficially
spoken with a friendly heart

(Kalena bhasita hoti)
(Sacca bhasita hoti)
(Sanha bhasita hoti)
(Atthasanhita bhasita hoti)
(Mettacittena bhasita hoti)

Bhikkhus, speech having these five characteristics are words well-spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize.
More here: http://pintojukjun.blogspot.com/2011/09 ... QSYchYzZnI
Thank you so very much Dootdoot this is so helpful!🙏🐢👌

budo
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by budo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:51 am

You can't lie and know the truth at the same time. Not knowing the truth is a punishment on its own, if the truth is peace and bliss. Someone who is lying is punishing themselves.

So the karmic effects for lying is eternal suffering.

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Alīno
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Alīno » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:35 am

Its good that you ashamed by this doing and aware of your misconduct. The best way to liberate yourself from the weight of this action is to tell the truth to the concerned person, saying: Diear friend, i'am sorry, i was affraid about bad consequances for me when you asked this question, so i was in panic and tell a lie :( I'am not used to tell lies so it brings me a lot of suffering, so i wanted to confess you my bad action. Please forgive me my weakness, and if it's not possible i'am ready to assume all consequances of that lie.

It's hard, and dengerous for your career, but so liberating... They will not kill you if you tell the truth, all the rest have no matter. Imho.

:anjali: Be strong and do as you think it's better for everybody.
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

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Akashad
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Akashad » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:45 am

budo wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:51 am
You can't lie and know the truth at the same time.
Yes that's true it cancels each other other out.
budo wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:51 am

So the karmic effects for lying is eternal suffering.
I don't agree with this statement.Lying won't cause eternal suffering as there's nothing eternal in samsara, a few days perhaps till I can set all this straight.I can't harbour lies for very long.🙏

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Akashad
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Akashad » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:16 am

Nwad wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:35 am
Its good that you ashamed by this doing and aware of your misconduct. The best way to liberate yourself from the weight of this action is to tell the truth to the concerned person, saying: Diear friend, i'am sorry, i was affraid about bad consequances for me when you asked this question, so i was in panic and tell a lie :( I'am not used to tell lies so it brings me a lot of suffering, so i wanted to confess you my bad action. Please forgive me my weakness, and if it's not possible i'am ready to assume all consequances of that lie.

It's hard, and dengerous for your career, but so liberating... They will not kill you if you tell the truth, all the rest have no matter. Imho.

:anjali: Be strong and do as you think it's better for everybody.
Hi Nwad,

I'm not "ashamed" in that sense.I understand what feeling ashamed when you do something wrong like saying something mean or hurting someone but it's not that.

It's not the same when I break this precept and lie.

it's not feeling shame or regret
it just doesn't feel right.

Like your wearing a small size clothes it doesn't feel right doesn't suit me..

it's not in accordance with the universe as bhikku boddhi puts it.

It's a bit more detached than feeling ashamed I don't feel ashamed at all to be honest I just find something bothers me but it's not feeling ashamed,not feeling sorry,it's not compassion also.I honest to God don't care about the person I lied to in this situation it just bother ME that I lied.

Breaking the precept of lying is like For example when I cross the street where im not suppose to walk on. I don't feel "ashamed"'. I just feel that it's "not right".

It's different from other precepts I keep I don't kill living beings out of compassion that's the strongest intention behind why I keep that precept,avoiding sexual immorality I keep to avoid having my reputation dragged in the dirt,I don't harm other beings because I don't want to have other people harm me so out of fear of retribution but lying is different it's not done out of compassion,fear or shame it just doesn't reflect the universe and I can't do it the same way I can't walk through a wall it doesn't reflect reality.

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Alīno
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Alīno » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:02 pm

I'am Sorry Akashad, my english level is too weak, so i can use some words which are not appropriate to the situation :anjali:

But, if you want to purify your conduct, and develop path of freedom, deep meditation etc, you should, i think, be less tolerant to even littles wrong doings as cross the road on the red light. When you wait on the red light, you dont create kamma, you just accept what heppen, but when you take the decision to cross on the red, you cheat, you know it, so you generates bad kamma. Why this kamma is bad? Because you train your mind to take wrong decisions, to cheat, and this "cheating habbit" will lead you to cheating (in the large meaning of this word), tell lies and so on, but if you train your mind to accept things as they really are, then you will live a peacefull life.
Take decisions needs a lot of energy, isn'it? So why we dont just establish our minds in easier way of life, way of truth ? :anjali:

Dont take my words personally, it's just some reflextions about the subject ;) :anjali:
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:25 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:07 am
Sorry, I don't have time now to find the sutta references for the below.
The first & best quote is from AN 8.40.
(4) “False speech, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one reborn as a human being false speech at minimum conduces to false accusations.

(5) “Divisive speech, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one reborn as a human being divisive speech at minimum conduces to being divided from one’s friends.

(6) “Harsh speech, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one reborn as a human being harsh speech at minimum conduces to disagreeable sounds.

(7) “Idle chatter, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one reborn as a human being idle chatter at minimum conduces to others distrusting one’s words.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.40/en/bodhi
Lying, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm.
Musāvādo, bhikkhave, āsevito bhāvito bahulīkato nirayasaṃvattaniko tiracchānayonisaṃvattaniko pettivisayasaṃvattaniko.

The minimum result it leads to for a human being is false accusations.
Yo sabbalahuso musāvādassa vipāko, manussabhūtassa abhūtabbhakkhānasaṃvattaniko hoti. (4)

Divisive speech, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm.
Pisuṇā, bhikkhave, vācā āsevitā bhāvitā bahulīkatā nirayasaṃvattanikā tiracchānayonisaṃvattanikā pettivisayasaṃvattanikā.

The minimum result it leads to for a human being is being divided against friends.
Yo sabbalahuso pisuṇāya vācāya vipāko, manussabhūtassa mittehi bhedanasaṃvattaniko hoti. (5)

Harsh speech, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm.
Pharusā, bhikkhave, vācā āsevitā bhāvitā bahulīkatā nirayasaṃvattanikā tiracchānayonisaṃvattanikā pettivisayasaṃvattanikā.

The minimum result it leads to for a human being is hearing disagreeable things.
Yo sabbalahuso pharusāya vācāya vipāko, manussabhūtassa amanāpasaddasaṃvattaniko hoti. (6)

Talking nonsense, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm.
Samphappalāpo, bhikkhave, āsevito bhāvito bahulīkato nirayasaṃvattaniko tiracchānayonisaṃvattaniko pettivisayasaṃvattaniko.

The minimum result it leads to for a human being is that no-one takes what you say seriously.
Yo sabbalahuso samphappalāpassa vipāko, manussabhūtassa anādeyyavācāsaṃvattaniko hoti. (7)

https://suttacentral.net/an8.40/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Akashad
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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by Akashad » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:01 pm

Nwad wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:02 pm
I'am Sorry Akashad, my english level is too weak, so i can use some words which are not appropriate to the situation :anjali:

But, if you want to purify your conduct, and develop path of freedom, deep meditation etc, you should, i think, be less tolerant to even littles wrong doings as cross the road on the red light. When you wait on the red light, you dont create kamma, you just accept what heppen, but when you take the decision to cross on the red, you cheat, you know it, so you generates bad kamma. Why this kamma is bad? Because you train your mind to take wrong decisions, to cheat, and this "cheating habbit" will lead you to cheating (in the large meaning of this word), tell lies and so on, but if you train your mind to accept things as they really are, then you will live a peacefull life.
Take decisions needs a lot of energy, isn'it? So why we dont just establish our minds in easier way of life, way of truth ? :anjali:

Dont take my words personally, it's just some reflextions about the subject ;) :anjali:

:anjali: thanks Nwad.

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Re: What are the Karmic Effects of Lying?

Post by tamdrin » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:12 pm

His Holiness the Dalai Lama once said something interesting. He said this tongue (pointing to his own) has never told a lie. That is amazing.

Sadhu..

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