Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
chownah
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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by chownah » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:28 am

Zom wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:22 pm
Tendancy to hide somethink can be rooted on conseit
Quite otherwise, obviously .)
Couldn't someone want to hide their misdeeds in order to enhance their public image and wouldn't this be rooted in conceit? Put another way; isn't deceit rooted in conceit?
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Zom
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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by Zom » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:14 pm

when you share suttas and encourage peoples to read suttas, do you do it out of conceit ?
If I were to say everywhere something like: "Look everyone, I read suttas, I know suttas, I benefit so much from suttas, I find suttas useful, please do as I do, because if you do, you'll get wonderful experience that I have and if you put some effort into it then your exprience will be as good as mine" - then, probably, I'd act this way because of conceit. But I don't share suttas this way, as you may notice.
Couldn't someone want to hide their misdeeds in order to enhance their public image and wouldn't this be rooted in conceit? Put another way; isn't deceit rooted in conceit?
Well, all samsara is rooted in conceit, our very existence. However, certain things affect conceit, as dhamma (mental phenomenon), directly. Taking care about your status trying to hide something doesn't affect conceit directly, because in this case you are dealing with something that is not inside you, but is "out there" - your status. But showing this your status (when there is already something to show), "activating" it, telling people how good you are - this can affect conceit directly - this is when it builds up. By the way, blaming oneself in public also can build up conceit.

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Nwad
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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by Nwad » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:39 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:14 pm
If I were to say everywhere something like: "Look everyone, I read suttas, I know suttas, I benefit so much from suttas, I find suttas useful, please do as I do, because if you do, you'll get wonderful experience that I have and if you put some effort into it then your exprience will be as good as mine" - then, probably, I'd act this way because of conceit. But I don't share suttas this way, as you may notice.
So the answer is "NO - you don't share and encourage peoples to develope wholesome qualities" out of conceit.
So why do you think that when peoples share and encourage others to develop wholesome qualities they do it out of conceit.

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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by Zom » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:16 pm

So why do you think that when peoples share and encourage others to develop wholesome qualities they do it out of conceit.
As I've shown, it depends on how this is done. When someone speaks too much about himself and not about the matter in a neutral way - then, with high probability, he does that on conceit basis, which is a hindrance for his personal practice and progression on the path.

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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by Nwad » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:52 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:16 pm
As I've shown, it depends on how this is done. When someone speaks too much about himself and not about the matter in a neutral way - then, with high probability, he does that on conceit basis, which is a hindrance for his personal practice and progression on the path.
Some questions that i hope you will not skip answers, i will interpret your silence as "I dont know" :

- I repeat my past question: If, when you teach others you dont feel conceit, why you think that when others teach something it's out of conceit?
- Form have more value then meening ?
- How can you speak about one's own feed back on some practice without using conventions of "I etc" ?
- How can you (legitemely) teach something about discipline if you dont practice it ?
- It's your direct knowledge of others minds (about conceit of those who teach sila) ?
- What is most gross unwholesome state between conceit and jalousy?
- Do you feel jalousy when others speek about their path progress?
- Do you feel conceit when you share your knowledge about suttas?
Last edited by Nwad on Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nwad
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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by Nwad » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:30 am

Actually, no metter. Void talk...

RIP topic about Good Sila. :toilet: :strawman:

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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by chownah » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:38 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:14 pm
Couldn't someone want to hide their misdeeds in order to enhance their public image and wouldn't this be rooted in conceit? Put another way; isn't deceit rooted in conceit?
Well, all samsara is rooted in conceit, our very existence. However, certain things affect conceit, as dhamma (mental phenomenon), directly. Taking care about your status trying to hide something doesn't affect conceit directly, because in this case you are dealing with something that is not inside you, but is "out there" - your status. But showing this your status (when there is already something to show), "activating" it, telling people how good you are - this can affect conceit directly - this is when it builds up. By the way, blaming oneself in public also can build up conceit.
You say, "Taking care about your status trying to hide something doesn't affect conceit directly, because in this case you are dealing with something that is not inside you, but is "out there" - your status." I think that your status is something that you perceive, that you fabricate, that you construe....your perceived status is tightly wound up with your conceit. People hide things as they believe in their constructed self and they believe in their constructed status and they hide things if they think that their perceived status will suffer if those things are revealed.

I think that your approach to this is based on construing a self identity for social status. If people take your post in a way which leads them to that construction then I think it will be doing them a disservice.
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Nwad
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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by Nwad » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:40 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:38 am
People hide things as they believe in their constructed self and they believe in their constructed status and they hide things if they think that their perceived status will suffer if those things are revealed.
Agree.
Open mind have nothing to hide, because he knows directly that there is no owner of causes and conditions Charing is generosity and non-identification, hiding is greed and identification. When some one share experiences of his body in mind, it's not necessary due to conceit. Conceit is seen only by minds who are affected by it, who think: Ian victim of conceit, and I do things out of conceit, so do others. It's not good approach to judge people's actions. Until we can read their minds we can't speek about other's motivations.

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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by Zom » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:37 pm

I think that your status is something that you perceive, that you fabricate, that you construe....your perceived status is tightly wound up with your conceit.
Yes, it is binded with conceit, but as I said, it doesn't bolster it directly. It may or it may not - in the process. Building public image is one thing, it requires one direction of mind - sometimes this is hard work to do, an unpleasant one, demaning some (or even huge) effort. But then, after that public image is built, you can start taking pleasure in it - this is totally another direction of mind, it requires no effort at all, and this is where conceit builds up - here you start building up conceit as it is with thoughts like: "How good I am, how famous I am, etc".

chownah
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Re: Let's emulate the Arahants, let's make everyday an "Uposatha day"

Post by chownah » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:54 pm

Zom,
I think that you are using the common place definition of "conceit".....that being "1. the state of being too proud of yourself and your actions:" as I found on line at the cambridge english dictionary. This is one of the three kinds of conceit as used in the dhamma....but the concept of conceit is not limited to just that. There are three kinds of conceit as used in the dhamma........here is an excerpt from nyanatiloka's dictionary:
https://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bu ... m.htm#māna
The equality-conceit māna the inferiority-conceit omāna and the superiority-conceit atimāna this threefold conceit should be overcome. For, after overcoming this threefold conceit, the monk, through the full penetration of conceit, is said to have put an end suffering; A. VI, 49.

Those ascetics and brahman priests who, relying on this impermanent, miserable and transitory nature of materiality, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions and consciousness, fancy: 'Better am I', or 'Equal am I', or 'Worse am I', all these imagine thus through not understanding reality; S. XXII, 49.
It seems that if one is embarrassed about something and keeps it hidden it could very well be a feeling of "worse am I" which is one of the kinds of conceit......it seems to me that "conceit" as used in the dhamma pretty much includes any value judgement applied to the self construal.
chownah

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