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Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:28 am
by Nwad
Greatings,

I have some questions about eight precepts:

1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
Are plants considered as living? I heared that when there is breathin and breath out so there is a life? Or living creature is only creatures bounded by the wheel of samsara?

2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
You can take only what is offered directly, or you can ask the permission to take something?

6. Vikalabhojana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from eating at the forbidden time (i.e., after noon).
Noon is 12AM or 12:30 AM or 2PM ? Or it depends on time when peoples eat in your country?
Also, it is considered as corruption of the precept if evening meal is offered by employer during any team meeting, or one should say that "i will not participate on evening team-meal".
This precept is about only hard food, or soups are included? What about fruit juice ?

8. Uccasayana-mahasayana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from lying on a high or luxurious sleeping place.
Is this precept concerns only sleeping time, or its about restraining from lying at any moment on any king of hight/luxirious places? For exemple, is the reading a book in the half-lying position (on a sofa, or a bed) is concidered as fault?

Thanks !
:anjali:

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:27 am
by JamesTheGiant
Nwad wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:28 am

1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
Are plants considered as living?
Plants don't count. Neither do bacteria or viruses. Just animals, insects, etc. There's no proper logic to it, just go with it.
2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
You can take only what is offered directly, or you can ask the permission to take something?
Just don't steal. If you think you need permission, you probably should ask.
6. Vikalabhojana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from eating at the forbidden time (i.e., after noon).
Noon is 12AM or 12:30 AM or 2PM ? Or it depends on time when peoples eat in your country?
Solar noon in your location. LunaSol-Cal is a good app.
Also, it is considered as corruption of the precept if evening meal is offered by employer during any team meeting, or one should say that "i will not participate on evening team-meal".
Don't say it like that, you'll sound like a lunatic. Say "Thanks, I'd love to come, and I'll just drink juice because my religion says I shouldn't eat in the evening."
This precept is about only hard food, or soups are included? What about fruit juice ?
This gets complicated. Soup is cheating. Juice is ok. For information meant for monks, have a read of the chapter of the Buddhist Monastic Code about food and drink. If you're following the 8 precepts strictly then they may be relevant.
8. Uccasayana-mahasayana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from lying on a high or luxurious sleeping place.
Is this precept concerns only sleeping time, or its about restraining from lying at any moment on any king of hight/luxirious places? For exemple, is the reading a book in the half-lying position (on a sofa, or a bed) is concidered as fault?
At any time. But they have to be high and luxurious, by the standards of today, 2019. Sofa or regular bed is ok.

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:34 am
by JamesTheGiant
Are you thinking of doing 8 precepts every day in your normal life?
5 precepts is more usual, but if you're really keen then doing the 8 isn't too crazy.
It's difficult, and it's easy to come across as a mentally unhinged fanatic.
But it can be very useful.

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:45 am
by Volo
Nwad wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:28 am
8. Uccasayana-mahasayana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from lying on a high or luxurious sleeping place.
Is this precept concerns only sleeping time, or its about restraining from lying at any moment on any king of hight/luxirious places? For exemple, is the reading a book in the half-lying position (on a sofa, or a bed) is concidered as fault?
I've heard from a monk that "high" means >2 cubits. Such high beds are difficult to come across nowadays. Therefore this rule is easy to keep.

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:56 am
by Srilankaputra
Also remember that precepts are for training the mind, although they look like restraints for body and speach.

Laying a luxurious mattress on the floor to sleep on would be keeping the precept in name only.

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:13 am
by Nwad
Thank you all for usefull answers!
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:34 am
Are you thinking of doing 8 precepts every day in your normal life?
5 precepts is more usual, but if you're really keen then doing the 8 isn't too crazy.
It's difficult, and it's easy to come across as a mentally unhinged fanatic.
But it can be very useful.
Thank you James to yours answers :) They will be usefully for me !

Actually 8 precepts is almost my natural way of life (kammic result i suppose), but time to time I used to watch some movie, or eat 3 times etc and I felt how these activities bring suffering to my mind. So my 29 birth day is on 20 mai, and to celebrate the going forth of Buddha Gotama at his 29 years I want to undertake the strict observance of 8 precepts from this Vesak. It will be my way to renounce and celebrate the Triple Gem, avoid obstacles on the path...

The most problematic for me, will be to an ounce to my actual employer and my team that during team meetings I will not eat. It will be awkward situation but it will be hard just the first time, after that they will be used to that, I hope )

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:51 am
by SarathW
The most problematic for me, will be to an ounce to my actual employer and my team that during team meetings I will not eat.
It is not a problem at all. Do not hesitate to make them aware of it in a non-threatening and a casual way.
Perhaps they will be happy to see your kindness. (perhaps they will be happy they can eat your food too. :tongue: just joking)

My working place there are about ten Muslims (mainly laborers).
We accommodate their religious belief by building them a prayer room, awareness of Ramadan (they do not eat or drink from morning to noon) and not giving alcohol at Christmas and make sure we give them Halal food.

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:31 am
by Nwad
SarathW wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:51 am
(perhaps they will be happy they can eat your food too. just joking)
It will be great ^^
SarathW wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:51 am
We accommodate their religious
Oh! It's very good !
Here in France they have some problems with all kind of religious activity, even if you are Christian , peoples find this awkward... But what is good is that our CEO organised some Dhamma talks of Mahayana tradition, so i have CEO as support to justify my right to follow Dhamma... :anjali:

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:46 pm
by sunnat
High is just another way of saying luxurious. The opposite, low, is something like basic or humble.

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:59 pm
by salayatananirodha
8. Uccasayana-mahasayana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from lying on a high or luxurious sleeping place.
Is this precept concerns only sleeping time, or its about restraining from lying at any moment on any king of hight/luxirious places? For exemple, is the reading a book in the half-lying position (on a sofa, or a bed) is concidered as fault?
At any time. But they have to be high and luxurious, by the standards of today, 2019. Sofa or regular bed is ok.
i'd like more information on this, but if there's not i can accept that.
https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/bodhi wrote:“Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, enjoy the use of high and luxurious beds and seats, such as:

spacious couches;
thrones with animal figures carved on the supports;
long-haired coverlets;
multi-colored patchwork coverlets;
white woollen coverlets
woollen coverlets embroidered with flowers;
quilts stuffed with cotton;
woollen coverlets embroidered with animal figures;
woollen coverlets with hair on both sides or on one side;
bedspreads embroidered with gems;
silk coverlets;
dance-hall carpets;
elephant, horse, or chariot rugs;
rugs of antelope-skins;
choice spreads made of kadali-deer hides;
spreads with red awnings overhead;
couches with red cushions for head and feet—

he abstains from the use of such high and luxurious beds and seats. This too pertains to his moral discipline.
i've actually measured my bed's height and it's about sixteen inches. it's a queen size bed i bought long ago. it's big and functions as a seat in my bedroom. i've gone bed shopping but not found one i thought would be reliable, and if i get rid of my bed then i don't have anywhere to sit to use the computer. i've used this as an excuse maybe not to keep the eighth precept in letter because i actively want to have a simple, humble bed. but even if the letter is there, the spirit isn't quite.

also from samaññaphala sutta:
“And how, great king, is the bhikkhu possessed of moral discipline? Herein, great king, having abandoned the destruction of life, the bhikkhu abstains from the destruction of life. He has laid down the rod and weapon and dwells conscientious, full of kindness, sympathetic for the welfare of all living beings. This pertains to his moral discipline.

...

“He abstains from damaging seed and plant life.
if plants were included i don't believe there would be a separate dictum here. however, bugs are included.
i've shared the fact that i only eat before noon with coworkers and nothing went wrong.
“He eats only in one part of the day, refraining from food at night and from eating at improper times.
does this mean the sixth precept includes eating only once a day? or is this more like the uposatha precept

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 3:29 pm
by DNS
Nwad wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:13 am
The most problematic for me, will be to an ounce to my actual employer and my team that during team meetings I will not eat. It will be awkward situation but it will be hard just the first time, after that they will be used to that, I hope )
Since you're a lay person, you don't have to be too strict on the 8 precepts, but that's up to you of course. I also eat only one meal per day, at lunch time, but I'm not too strict on it. If I have to meet some people for dinner, I'll make an exception and just do the one meal in the evening instead of lunch. As long as your work meetings are not everyday in the evening, you could make an exception on those days and then people won't think you're "weird" for only eating lunch.

Or another alternative is that if you've already ate lunch and then eat with them at dinner time in the evening, you could just eat a small amount and slowly eat, mindfully and most won't even notice that you're not eating that much. Drink tea and talk a lot and they are unlikely to notice and that way you are still interacting with them.

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:23 pm
by Nwad
DNS wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:29 pm
Since you're a lay person, you don't have to be too strict on the 8 precepts, but that's up to you of course. I also eat only one meal per day, at lunch time, but I'm not too strict on it. If I have to meet some people for dinner, I'll make an exception and just do the one meal in the evening instead of lunch. As long as your work meetings are not everyday in the evening, you could make an exception on those days and then people won't think you're "weird" for only eating lunch.

Or another alternative is that if you've already ate lunch and then eat with them at dinner time in the evening, you could just eat a small amount and slowly eat, mindfully and most won't even notice that you're not eating that much. Drink tea and talk a lot and they are unlikely to notice and that way you are still interacting with them.
Thank you DNS !

It is intresting tactic to not eat a whole day when you know that on evening there will be a meal with peoples. But when you have to chare brekfast, lunch and evening meal with them, problem arise... :juggling:
Iam afraid that if i begun to search for excuses or arangements, my mind will be weaked and try to find other arangements for other precepts... Actualy i already tryied to keep 8 precepts with some arangements, and eauch time there is complete degradation of discipline...

I think it will be better for me to keep it strict, but I will ask a Bhikkhu next time i go to the monastery...

Thanks you !
:anjali:

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:35 pm
by Volo
Explanation of 8 precepts from Somdet Phra Buddhaghosacariya (Ñanavara Thera) https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... satha.html

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:52 am
by DooDoot
Nwad wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:28 am
1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami : I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
Are plants considered as living? I heared that when there is breathin and breath out so there is a life? Or living creature is only creatures bounded by the wheel of samsara?
Hi

The precept says to not destroy "pana", which means "breathing". Since the ancients probably did not believe plants breathe, it would exclude plants.

Also "beings" bound by "samsara" appear to be called "satta" rather than "pāṇa".

Regards :smile:
It’s when a certain person kills living creatures. They’re violent, bloody-handed, a hardened killer, merciless to living beings.

Idha, cunda, ekacco pāṇātipātī hoti luddo lohitapāṇi hatapahate niviṭṭho adayāpanno sabbapāṇabhūtesu

https://suttacentral.net/an10.176/en/sujato
No first point is found of sentient beings roaming and transmigrating, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.

Pubbā koṭi na paññāyati avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ taṇhāsaṃyojanānaṃ sandhāvataṃ saṃsarataṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.99/en/sujato

Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:46 pm
by Nwad
Volo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:35 pm
Explanation of 8 precepts from Somdet Phra Buddhaghosacariya (Ñanavara Thera) https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... satha.html
Thank you very much dear Volo ! This explanation is great, so complete and large :anjali: Sadhu !
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:52 am
Also "beings" bound by "samsara" appear to be called "satta" rather than "pāṇa".
Intresting point. So it mean that seads and plants are included in that precept ?