Questions about some of 8 precepts

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Nwad
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Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Post by Nwad » Sun May 19, 2019 5:53 pm

Greetings,

Is doing a sport considered as entertainment ?
Is a musculation considered as beautification ?

:anjali:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Post by Sam Vara » Sun May 19, 2019 6:43 pm

Nwad wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 5:53 pm
Greetings,

Is doing a sport considered as entertainment ?
Is a musculation considered as beautification ?

:anjali:
I would think the answer is yes to both of these.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sun May 19, 2019 10:58 pm

Nwad wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 5:53 pm
Is doing a sport considered as entertainment ?
Is a musculation considered as beautification ?
It depends on the motivation. I do sport to keep fit and healthy and enjoy the outdoors. I do not consider that entertainment. It is entertaining, but that is secondary, it is not my motivation.
For me sport is like medicine, which also tastes good.

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Nwad
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Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Post by Nwad » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:41 am

Thank you for your answers !:)

I have some more questions)

- to whom one should confess ? (To the person who was a victim of transgression? To the one who keep the same s precepts as you? To your preceptor? To anyone ?)

- when confession should be done ? (At every moment? As soon as possible? Before/during/after Uposatha? )

- why chocolate, or sometimes, cheese are allowable afternoon?

- if you are invited to someone's house/car and this person put a music, what one should do ? (Asking for shouting down? Not paying attention/send door restraint/concentration on something else ?)

- films that spokes about Dhamma are allowable? (Like "Little Buddha", "Spring, summer, Autumn, winter and spring again", "Baraka",...)

Thank you a lot :anjali:

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Volo
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Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Post by Volo » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:48 am

Nwad wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:41 am
- to whom one should confess ? (To the person who was a victim of transgression? To the one who keep the same s precepts as you? To your preceptor? To anyone ?)
Lay people usually do not confess, but just take precepts anew when something is broken. You can take them from a bhikkhu or by yourself if no bhikkhu is present.
- why chocolate, or sometimes, cheese are allowable afternoon?
Cheese and chocolate were unknown in the Buddha's time, therefore there is a place for speculations. People who say chocolate is allowable would say it contains cacao butter, which is a plant oil, sugar (allowable in the afternoon) and the other ingredients from cacao, which they treat as a kind of juice. And they say all three are allowable in the afternoon. This argumentation is not perfect. In particular cacao solids are made out of cacao seeds, therefore it cannot be really treated as juice, also only few oils are allowable, not all of them.

What concerns cheese, there is an allowance for so called "navanīta" in the afternoon. Usually it is translated as "fresh butter". It's made by churning yogurt (the liquid would be buttermilk, the solid - fresh butter or navanīta), but people who like cheese say navanīta is similar to cheese.

Both chocolate and cheese are considered to be allowable in the afternoon mainly by some of Thai Ajahns. Most monks in Myanmar wouldn't treat them this way. Imo they shouldn't be consumed in the afternoon by those who keep 8 precepts.
- if you are invited to someone's house/car and this person put a music, what one should do ?
If you haven't made any effort to listen to it then it's not a break of the vow.

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mikenz66
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Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:39 am

Volo wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:48 am
Cheese and chocolate were unknown in the Buddha's time, therefore there is a place for speculations.
It is kind of odd. I've mostly seen chocolate and cheese in the context of westerners in Ajahn Chah's lineage, though yogurt seems to be quite common in some other circles.

Personally, as a non-monastic (if I were a monastic I'd be following my preceptors instructions...), I don't see much point in worrying about the minutiae of such things. If I am on a retreat at a monastery I simply stay within their customs, and sleep on whatever beds they happen to have. To me, the extra precepts are very different from the 5 precepts, which are a basic standard of morality, and which one should endeavour to keep at all times. The point of the extra precepts is to simplify life, and support mindfulness and meditation. It's not that eating after noon is "bad", but that the practice of not eating after noon is generally more conducive to effective meditation (some people simply can't function effectively on that regime due to their physiology - and in such cases of medical problems the sensible - and, as I understand it, perfectly allowable for monastics - approach is to have an eating schedule that keeps them healthy).
Volo wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:48 am
- if you are invited to someone's house/car and this person put a music, what one should do ?
If you haven't made any effort to listen to it then it's not a break of the vow.
Yes, good luck avoiding music, if you are in Asia anywhere near people... :tongue:

:heart:
Mike

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Volo
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Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Post by Volo » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:59 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:39 am
It is kind of odd. I've mostly seen chocolate and cheese in the context of westerners in Ajahn Chah's lineage,
Yes, that's what I meant. Also cheese and chocolate are more common in the west therefore are not often available in Asian monasteries even if the abbot allows them. But that is more Thai thing, those who were trained in Burma wouldn't usually consume them in the afternoon.
though yogurt seems to be quite common in some other circles.
Yogurt is definitely not allowable in the afternoon for 8-precepters.
If I am on a retreat at a monastery I simply stay within their customs, and sleep on whatever beds they happen to have.
You alone are responsible for your precepts, not the retreat center. If you have taken 8 precepts and then they serve you a dinner it's wise to refuse.
some people simply can't function effectively on that regime due to their physiology - and in such cases of medical problems the sensible
Yes there are such people. They shouldn't take 8 precepts.
and, as I understand it, perfectly allowable for monastics - approach is to have an eating schedule that keeps them healthy).
For monastic (both bhikkhus and samaneras) it's not allowable to eat solid food in the afternoon doesn't matter how sick they are. Only medicine + allowable 5 tonics.
Yes, good luck avoiding music, if you are in Asia anywhere near people...
If a person doesn't try to listen music by asking somebody to play it or going to where it is played for the purpose of listen to it, but somebody plays it next to him, then it's okay.

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Re: Questions about some of 8 precepts

Post by chownah » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:26 am

If you are entertained then it is entertainment. Actions or events are not in themselves entertainment....they are empty of self and have no place to carry this qualifying description. Entertainment (just like beauty) is in the eye (mind) of the beholder.

If you delight in it then it is entertainment I guess. It is not easy to discern when one is delighting as one usually just delights in the delighting and does not question it since questioning it will diminish the delightment. You can eat something good and know that it has a pleasant flavor or you can delight in the flavor by focusing in on it and making it your total absorption. Some people think that the closer to enlightenment you get the more incredibly delicious your food will taste, the more enticing will be the sunset, the greener the pastures, etc. My view is that the closer to enlightenment you get the more you will see these things as being "thus" which in my view is in opposition to the attitude of delightment.

Take your pick: enlightenment or delightenment.
chownah

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mikenz66
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Re: Questions abou some of 8 precepts

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:29 am

Volo wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:59 am
If I am on a retreat at a monastery I simply stay within their customs, and sleep on whatever beds they happen to have.
You alone are responsible for your precepts, not the retreat center. If you have taken 8 precepts and then they serve you a dinner it's wise to refuse.
Sure, that's what I mean by "staying within their customs". They don't serve dinner at my local Wat, in any case. What I wouldn't do is argue about their customs...
Volo wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:59 am
For monastic (both bhikkhus and samaneras) it's not allowable to eat solid food in the afternoon doesn't matter how sick they are. Only medicine + allowable 5 tonics.
In cases I've heard about, I recall that the extra food was considered to be medicine. These were monks who were quite sick. But, since I'm not a monastic, I have no stake in such issues - it's an internal monastic matter .

:heart:

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Nwad
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Re: Questions about some of 8 precepts

Post by Nwad » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:20 pm

Thank you for your answers dear ones ! :anjali:

I have another ones :roll: :

- Is milk (soy or cow) is allowed after noon?
- And coffee?
- Taking some object to observe it closely and putting it back to it's place is considered as "taking what is not given"?
- When some one feels sleepy ( after the meal, or little sleepeng) and he don't tryed to supress it by all means discribed by suttas but goes take a rest - is considered as indulgence in sleepeng? If yes, it means that before going take a rest when feel sleepy one should try all methods in his disposition to avoid sleepeng?

:anjali:

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Volo
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Re: Questions about some of 8 precepts

Post by Volo » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:15 pm

Nwad wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:20 pm
- Is milk (soy or cow) is allowed after noon?
Cow milk surely not (it was known in Buddha times and he didn't make allowance for it). Concerning soya some monks say it's like juice, and therefore is allowable. Although strictly by Vinaya it won't be allowable (soya beans is a kind of grain, and "juice" from grain is not allowable). But this is monk's discipline, whether you want to follow it being a lay person is up to you. I wouldn't drink soya milk, because imo it is in a way similar to milk.
- And coffee?
Again, it wasn't known in Buddha's time... I think most monasteries allow it (although some prohibit, but it might be due to its stimulating effects on nervous system).
- Taking some object to observe it closely and putting it back to it's place is considered as "taking what is not given"?
That's fine. Stealing is only when you yourself know you are stealing. Even if you loan something without asking permission from an owner, but think "I will bring it back", it's not really a stealing (although is not a good way to do things).
- When some one feels sleepy ( after the meal, or little sleepeng) and he don't tryed to supress it by all means discribed by suttas but goes take a rest - is considered as indulgence in sleepeng? If yes, it means that before going take a rest when feel sleepy one should try all methods in his disposition to avoid sleepeng?
That's up to practitioner. Some people might feel it's much better to have a short nap and then continue fresh and energetic. Others might be benefited from the opposite. Even Buddha sometimes slept in the afternoon:
MN 36 wrote:“This is a matter about which Master Gotama can be trusted, as an accomplished and fully enlightened one should be. But does Master Gotama recall sleeping during the day?”393
46. “I recall, Aggivessana, in the last month of the hot season, on returning from my almsround, after my meal I lay out my outer robe folded in four, and lying down on my right side, I fall asleep mindful and fully aware.”
“Some recluses and brahmins call that abiding in delusion, Master Gotama.” [250]
“It is not in such a way that one is deluded or undeluded, Aggivessana. As to how one is deluded or undeluded, listen and attend closely to what I shall say.” — “Yes, sir,” Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha’s son replied. The Blessed One said this:
47. “Him I call deluded, Aggivessana, who has not abandoned the taints that defile, bring renewal of being, give trouble, ripen in suffering, and lead to future birth, ageing, and death; for it is with the non-abandoning of the taints that one is deluded. Him I call undeluded who has abandoned the taints that defile, bring renewal of being, give trouble, ripen in suffering, and lead to future birth, ageing, and death; for it is with the abandoning of the taints that one is undeluded. The Tathāgata, Aggivessana, has abandoned the taints that defile, bring renewal of being, give trouble, ripen in suffering, and lead to future birth, ageing, and death; he has cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, done away with them so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Just as a palm tree whose crown is cut off is incapable of further growth, so too, the Tathāgata has abandoned the taints that defile… done away with them so that they are no longer subject to future arising.”

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Nwad
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Re: Questions about some of 8 precepts

Post by Nwad » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:05 pm

Thank you Volo :anjali:
Very clear !

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Nwad
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Re: Questions about some of 8 precepts

Post by Nwad » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:02 pm

Another question :

- playing with children, cat or dog when they asking for it, it's ok? I mother have a cat, and no one play with him, apart me, so when I come visit her, the cat become excited and ask me for playing a little 5-10 minutes. I play with him out of compassion, but such action should have ignorance as result (because I entertains one's other ignorance). Should I play with a cat out of compassion, or try to tell him about Dhamma with hope that it will help him in future lives ?

:anjali:

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Volo
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Re: Questions about some of 8 precepts

Post by Volo » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:07 pm

What precept can playing with cat or children possibly break?

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Nwad
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Re: Questions about some of 8 precepts

Post by Nwad » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:13 pm

Volo wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:07 pm
What precept can playing with cat or children possibly break?
I thinked about entertainment precept ;)

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