Livelihood

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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DarrenM
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Livelihood

Post by DarrenM »

My job involves conducting surveys for central heating systems and Insualtion on a fuel poverty, government run sheme for domestic properties. I have to go into customers loft/ attic spaces to check for insulation and possible pipework runs. I often come across vermin droppings and for us to complete the job my office require the customer to ensure that there is no vermin in the loft space for when our engineers do the work. There is no other option but for the engineers to go up into the loft on some occasions,

I have to inform the customer that our office requires a certificate from the Environmental Health stating that there is no vermin present. Even though I encourage the customer to ask if the environmental health can set humane traps. The customer has to then contact the Environmental Health, but I know that the Pest Control will put poison down which will kill the vermin if eaten. This is causing me distress as I follow the 5 precepts with a lot of effort, but feel I am inplicit In the killing of these animals. What are others thoughts on this.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
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Sam Vara
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Re: Livelihood

Post by Sam Vara »

My thoughts on this are that if you are not killing the creatures involved, then there is no dark kamma involved. You are merely informing a customer that a service cannot be provided unless certain conditions are met (i.e. that there are no vermin present at a particular time). Whether the customer acts upon this advice, and how the customer acts on this advice, are the concern of the customer. They are at liberty to say, for example, that they no longer require your service if killing is involved; or to humanely remove the vermin without killing. Any complicity in killing is, as far as I can see, restricted to instances of directly causing another person to kill.

The same issue with complicity would apply to many other jobs. A buyer for a supermarket, for example, may require apples to be free from larvae. But it is up to the grower or the grower's agents as to how they meet that condition and provide acceptable apples.
DarrenM
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Re: Livelihood

Post by DarrenM »

Hi Sam, I understand what you are saying, it is the fact that our office insist in the Environmental Health providing a certificate to show there is no vermin present. I know from going back to the properties to inspect the work after it has been done that they have always put poison down.

I have been reading, and I will also now explain the risks of the customers pets getting poisoned if they enter the loft or catch any poisoned vermin, and also the smell if the vermin die in their loft space, hopefully they will the insist on humane traps. Other than getting a different job I can’t do anything further.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
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Sam Vara
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Re: Livelihood

Post by Sam Vara »

DarrenM wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:01 pm Hi Sam, I understand what you are saying, it is the fact that our office insist in the Environmental Health providing a certificate to show there is no vermin present. I know from going back to the properties to inspect the work after it has been done that they have always put poison down.
Sure. You may not like that situation, but in terms of sila, it is not you that put the poison down; nor did you tell them to. You merely relayed requirements. If a decision was made to kill, then somebody else made it, and will reap the results.
DarrenM
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Re: Livelihood

Post by DarrenM »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:06 pm
DarrenM wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:01 pm Hi Sam, I understand what you are saying, it is the fact that our office insist in the Environmental Health providing a certificate to show there is no vermin present. I know from going back to the properties to inspect the work after it has been done that they have always put poison down.
Sure. You may not like that situation, but in terms of sila, it is not you that put the poison down; nor did you tell them to. You merely relayed requirements. If a decision was made to kill, then somebody else made it, and will reap the results.
Thankyou Sam. That has helped change my pattern of thought, others may have a different opinion, such as Army Generals giving orders during times of war, but this is different, as they are actually telling their troops to do the killing. In my circumstance there is an alternative humane way, which I am encouraging.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
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dharmacorps
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Re: Livelihood

Post by dharmacorps »

To me this also does not seem like a breach of the 1st precept. You are not killing, or ordering anyone to kill. You are not telling anyone they must kill rats, or requiring them to do so.
santa100
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Re: Livelihood

Post by santa100 »

DarrenM wrote:I have been reading, and I will also now explain the risks of the customers pets getting poisoned if they enter the loft or catch any poisoned vermin, and also the smell if the vermin die in their loft space.
Also suggest other natural approaches to the customers. A combination of ultrasonic repeller, peppermint oil, ground red pepper, and humane traps should form an effective comprehensive strategy to repel vermins. After informing them the alternative methods, you can safely say you've done your part and the rest will be entirely up to the home owners to implement things according to their conscience.
DarrenM
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Re: Livelihood

Post by DarrenM »

dharmacorps wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:21 pm To me this also does not seem like a breach of the 1st precept. You are not killing, or ordering anyone to kill. You are not telling anyone they must kill rats, or requiring them to do so.
Thankyou Dharmacorps. I realise this now.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
DarrenM
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Re: Livelihood

Post by DarrenM »

santa100 wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:26 pm
DarrenM wrote:I have been reading, and I will also now explain the risks of the customers pets getting poisoned if they enter the loft or catch any poisoned vermin, and also the smell if the vermin die in their loft space.
Also suggest other natural approaches to the customers. A combination of ultrasonic repeller, peppermint oil, ground red pepper, and humane traps should form an effective comprehensive strategy to repel vermins. After informing them the alternative methods, you can safely say you've done your part and the rest will be entirely up to the home owners to implement things according to their conscience.
Thanks Santa, the more information I can give them the better. :twothumbsup:
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Livelihood

Post by salayatananirodha »

I say take a good look through Digha Nikaya 2 and see if your livelihood is any of the wrong livelihoods listed. I don't know the answer to your question (only you know, I think), but you can use that sutta as your reference.
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DarrenM
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Re: Livelihood

Post by DarrenM »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:06 pm I say take a good look through Digha Nikaya 2 and see if your livelihood is any of the wrong livelihoods listed. I don't know the answer to your question (only you know, I think), but you can use that sutta as your reference.
Hi Salayatana, my job isn’t one of the wrong. Livelihoods, Thankyou for your concern. 😀
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
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