My job involves conducting surveys for central heating systems and Insualtion on a fuel poverty, government run sheme for domestic properties. I have to go into customers loft/ attic spaces to check for insulation and possible pipework runs. I often come across vermin droppings and for us to complete the job my office require the customer to ensure that there is no vermin in the loft space for when our engineers do the work. There is no other option but for the engineers to go up into the loft on some occasions,
I have to inform the customer that our office requires a certificate from the Environmental Health stating that there is no vermin present. Even though I encourage the customer to ask if the environmental health can set humane traps. The customer has to then contact the Environmental Health, but I know that the Pest Control will put poison down which will kill the vermin if eaten. This is causing me distress as I follow the 5 precepts with a lot of effort, but feel I am inplicit In the killing of these animals. What are others thoughts on this.
Livelihood
Livelihood
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
AN 5.176- Rapture
Re: Livelihood
My thoughts on this are that if you are not killing the creatures involved, then there is no dark kamma involved. You are merely informing a customer that a service cannot be provided unless certain conditions are met (i.e. that there are no vermin present at a particular time). Whether the customer acts upon this advice, and how the customer acts on this advice, are the concern of the customer. They are at liberty to say, for example, that they no longer require your service if killing is involved; or to humanely remove the vermin without killing. Any complicity in killing is, as far as I can see, restricted to instances of directly causing another person to kill.
The same issue with complicity would apply to many other jobs. A buyer for a supermarket, for example, may require apples to be free from larvae. But it is up to the grower or the grower's agents as to how they meet that condition and provide acceptable apples.
The same issue with complicity would apply to many other jobs. A buyer for a supermarket, for example, may require apples to be free from larvae. But it is up to the grower or the grower's agents as to how they meet that condition and provide acceptable apples.
Re: Livelihood
Hi Sam, I understand what you are saying, it is the fact that our office insist in the Environmental Health providing a certificate to show there is no vermin present. I know from going back to the properties to inspect the work after it has been done that they have always put poison down.
I have been reading, and I will also now explain the risks of the customers pets getting poisoned if they enter the loft or catch any poisoned vermin, and also the smell if the vermin die in their loft space, hopefully they will the insist on humane traps. Other than getting a different job I can’t do anything further.
I have been reading, and I will also now explain the risks of the customers pets getting poisoned if they enter the loft or catch any poisoned vermin, and also the smell if the vermin die in their loft space, hopefully they will the insist on humane traps. Other than getting a different job I can’t do anything further.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
AN 5.176- Rapture
Re: Livelihood
Sure. You may not like that situation, but in terms of sila, it is not you that put the poison down; nor did you tell them to. You merely relayed requirements. If a decision was made to kill, then somebody else made it, and will reap the results.DarrenM wrote: ↑Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:01 pm Hi Sam, I understand what you are saying, it is the fact that our office insist in the Environmental Health providing a certificate to show there is no vermin present. I know from going back to the properties to inspect the work after it has been done that they have always put poison down.
Re: Livelihood
Thankyou Sam. That has helped change my pattern of thought, others may have a different opinion, such as Army Generals giving orders during times of war, but this is different, as they are actually telling their troops to do the killing. In my circumstance there is an alternative humane way, which I am encouraging.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:06 pmSure. You may not like that situation, but in terms of sila, it is not you that put the poison down; nor did you tell them to. You merely relayed requirements. If a decision was made to kill, then somebody else made it, and will reap the results.DarrenM wrote: ↑Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:01 pm Hi Sam, I understand what you are saying, it is the fact that our office insist in the Environmental Health providing a certificate to show there is no vermin present. I know from going back to the properties to inspect the work after it has been done that they have always put poison down.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
AN 5.176- Rapture
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Re: Livelihood
To me this also does not seem like a breach of the 1st precept. You are not killing, or ordering anyone to kill. You are not telling anyone they must kill rats, or requiring them to do so.
Re: Livelihood
Also suggest other natural approaches to the customers. A combination of ultrasonic repeller, peppermint oil, ground red pepper, and humane traps should form an effective comprehensive strategy to repel vermins. After informing them the alternative methods, you can safely say you've done your part and the rest will be entirely up to the home owners to implement things according to their conscience.DarrenM wrote:I have been reading, and I will also now explain the risks of the customers pets getting poisoned if they enter the loft or catch any poisoned vermin, and also the smell if the vermin die in their loft space.
Re: Livelihood
Thankyou Dharmacorps. I realise this now.dharmacorps wrote: ↑Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:21 pm To me this also does not seem like a breach of the 1st precept. You are not killing, or ordering anyone to kill. You are not telling anyone they must kill rats, or requiring them to do so.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
AN 5.176- Rapture
Re: Livelihood
Thanks Santa, the more information I can give them the better.santa100 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:26 pmAlso suggest other natural approaches to the customers. A combination of ultrasonic repeller, peppermint oil, ground red pepper, and humane traps should form an effective comprehensive strategy to repel vermins. After informing them the alternative methods, you can safely say you've done your part and the rest will be entirely up to the home owners to implement things according to their conscience.DarrenM wrote:I have been reading, and I will also now explain the risks of the customers pets getting poisoned if they enter the loft or catch any poisoned vermin, and also the smell if the vermin die in their loft space.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
AN 5.176- Rapture
- salayatananirodha
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Re: Livelihood
I say take a good look through Digha Nikaya 2 and see if your livelihood is any of the wrong livelihoods listed. I don't know the answer to your question (only you know, I think), but you can use that sutta as your reference.
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
Re: Livelihood
Hi Salayatana, my job isn’t one of the wrong. Livelihoods, Thankyou for your concern.salayatananirodha wrote: ↑Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:06 pm I say take a good look through Digha Nikaya 2 and see if your livelihood is any of the wrong livelihoods listed. I don't know the answer to your question (only you know, I think), but you can use that sutta as your reference.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
AN 5.176- Rapture