lice

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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dylanj
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lice

Post by dylanj » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:27 pm

what do you do if you get lice?
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

DarrenM
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Re: lice

Post by DarrenM » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:54 pm

Lice apparently stay still when wet, no need for conditioner as it will likely harm them. Not sure how you would then send them on their way. Maybe do it outdoors and try and remove them from the comb to some dry tissue paper??


NHS website:
Wet combing
Lice and nits can be removed by wet combing. This method should be tried first.
You can buy a special fine-toothed comb (detection comb) online or from pharmacies to remove head lice and nits.
There will be instructions on the pack to follow, but typically you:
use the comb on wet or dry hair – although it usually works best on wet hair with conditioner
comb the whole head of hair, from the roots to the ends
repeat every few days for 2 weeks
It usually takes about 10 minutes to comb short hair, and 20 to 30 minutes for long, frizzy or curly hair.

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Sam Vara
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Re: lice

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:52 pm

DarrenM wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:54 pm
Lice apparently stay still when wet, no need for conditioner as it will likely harm them. Not sure how you would then send them on their way. Maybe do it outdoors and try and remove them from the comb to some dry tissue paper??


NHS website:
Wet combing
Lice and nits can be removed by wet combing. This method should be tried first.
You can buy a special fine-toothed comb (detection comb) online or from pharmacies to remove head lice and nits.
There will be instructions on the pack to follow, but typically you:
use the comb on wet or dry hair – although it usually works best on wet hair with conditioner
comb the whole head of hair, from the roots to the ends
repeat every few days for 2 weeks
It usually takes about 10 minutes to comb short hair, and 20 to 30 minutes for long, frizzy or curly hair.
Combing them out of wet hair certainly would "send them on their way", but only if they are subject to post-mortem rebirth. I regularly comb lice out of my children's hair, and those that are not mashed up by the comb would soon die without finding a new host. Unlike animal fleas, they are quite delicate little critters.

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dylanj
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Re: lice

Post by dylanj » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:51 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:52 pm
DarrenM wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:54 pm
Lice apparently stay still when wet, no need for conditioner as it will likely harm them. Not sure how you would then send them on their way. Maybe do it outdoors and try and remove them from the comb to some dry tissue paper??


NHS website:
Wet combing
Lice and nits can be removed by wet combing. This method should be tried first.
You can buy a special fine-toothed comb (detection comb) online or from pharmacies to remove head lice and nits.
There will be instructions on the pack to follow, but typically you:
use the comb on wet or dry hair – although it usually works best on wet hair with conditioner
comb the whole head of hair, from the roots to the ends
repeat every few days for 2 weeks
It usually takes about 10 minutes to comb short hair, and 20 to 30 minutes for long, frizzy or curly hair.
Combing them out of wet hair certainly would "send them on their way", but only if they are subject to post-mortem rebirth. I regularly comb lice out of my children's hair, and those that are not mashed up by the comb would soon die without finding a new host. Unlike animal fleas, they are quite delicate little critters.
that is killing & against the first precept.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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AgarikaJ
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Re: lice

Post by AgarikaJ » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:19 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:51 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:52 pm
I regularly comb lice out of my children's hair, and those that are not mashed up by the comb would soon die without finding a new host. Unlike animal fleas, they are quite delicate little critters.
that is killing & against the first precept.
If one is opposed so strongly to the advertend killing of lice, the only viable alternative would be the complete shaving of all head hair. Where there are no living hairs left, even lice that were not removed with the hair will quickly flee their host.

Finding a new one, I would presume, would be the living out of their Kamma.

It is not unreasonable to assume that the shaving of the head that was a sign of many ascetics (and of course the Buddha's disciples) also had hygienic reasons; it was a tried and tested way of getting rid of lice in the military, prisons, orphanages, etc until modern times.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Sam Vara
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Re: lice

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:18 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:51 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:52 pm
DarrenM wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:54 pm
Lice apparently stay still when wet, no need for conditioner as it will likely harm them. Not sure how you would then send them on their way. Maybe do it outdoors and try and remove them from the comb to some dry tissue paper??


NHS website:
Wet combing
Lice and nits can be removed by wet combing. This method should be tried first.
You can buy a special fine-toothed comb (detection comb) online or from pharmacies to remove head lice and nits.
There will be instructions on the pack to follow, but typically you:
use the comb on wet or dry hair – although it usually works best on wet hair with conditioner
comb the whole head of hair, from the roots to the ends
repeat every few days for 2 weeks
It usually takes about 10 minutes to comb short hair, and 20 to 30 minutes for long, frizzy or curly hair.
Combing them out of wet hair certainly would "send them on their way", but only if they are subject to post-mortem rebirth. I regularly comb lice out of my children's hair, and those that are not mashed up by the comb would soon die without finding a new host. Unlike animal fleas, they are quite delicate little critters.
that is killing & against the first precept.
Yes, that's right! I think even shaving your head and whole body (to rid oneself of body lice) would probably result in the death of all those lice already in residence.

DarrenM
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Re: lice

Post by DarrenM » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:41 am

Phwoar, I hope nobody is accusing me recommending killing. I follow the 5 precepts. If you read what I say then you will see that I’ve said not to use conditioner as this would harm them, so it would hardly be likely I’d then recommend killing them.

I read that they stay still in water, the article said they were resilient, so I presumed that water would not kill them. If I am wrong then do not use water.

Edit: maybe I read wrong, and Dylan was taking to Sam

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Sam Vara
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Re: lice

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:45 pm

DarrenM wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:41 am
Phwoar, I hope nobody is accusing me recommending killing. I follow the 5 precepts. If you read what I say then you will see that I’ve said not to use conditioner as this would harm them, so it would hardly be likely I’d then recommend killing them.

I read that they stay still in water, the article said they were resilient, so I presumed that water would not kill them. If I am wrong then do not use water.

Edit: maybe I read wrong, and Dylan was taking to Sam
Yes, my point is that once they are established, I think it would be impossible in practical terms to remove them without killing them.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: lice

Post by salayatananirodha » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:16 am

A question like this I think is unnecessary. If your motivation is compassionate, you'll figure it out.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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dylanj
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Re: lice

Post by dylanj » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:51 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:16 am
A question like this I think is unnecessary. If your motivation is compassionate, you'll figure it out.
it's not the answer to the question itself i'm concerned with. i know exactly what i'd do.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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salayatananirodha
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Re: lice

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:24 am

what
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Sam Vara
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Re: lice

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:52 am

dylanj wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:51 am
salayatananirodha wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:16 am
A question like this I think is unnecessary. If your motivation is compassionate, you'll figure it out.
it's not the answer to the question itself i'm concerned with. i know exactly what i'd do.
I'm having trouble following the point of this thread. What exactly are you concerned with? What sort of answer do you want?

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dylanj
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Re: lice

Post by dylanj » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:57 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:52 am
dylanj wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:51 am
salayatananirodha wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:16 am
A question like this I think is unnecessary. If your motivation is compassionate, you'll figure it out.
it's not the answer to the question itself i'm concerned with. i know exactly what i'd do.
I'm having trouble following the point of this thread. What exactly are you concerned with? What sort of answer do you want?
well it should be clear that not only this is against the 1st precept but that breaking it is not a good idea, even for the sake of relief from lice. it is hell-kamma. i was hoping to see people recognize it as such & advocate non-harming towards lice.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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dylanj
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Location: San Francisco
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Re: lice

Post by dylanj » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:59 am

i read some story about ramana maharshi (sp?) living totally infested with lice & refusing to kill or harm them in anyway despite his disciples requests to do so

if a hindu can be so peaceful how much more so should we
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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AgarikaJ
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:21 pm

Re: lice

Post by AgarikaJ » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:57 am

dylanj wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:57 am
well it should be clear that not only this is against the 1st precept but that breaking it is not a good idea, even for the sake of relief from lice. it is hell-kamma. i was hoping to see people recognize it as such & advocate non-harming towards lice.
You would also be actively spreading lice throughout your community, a deeply uncompassionate act, as lice are known to carry a good number of regularly deadly pathogens.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738510/
The body louse, Pediculus humanus corporis, is the vector of three human pathogens: Rickettsia prowazekii, the agent of epidemic typhus; Borrelia recurrentis, the agent of relapsing fever; and Bartonella quintana, the agent of trench fever, bacillary angiomatosis, endocarditis, chronic bacteremia, and chronic lymphadenopathy. Louse-borne diseases can be associated with high incidence of disease and death, especially epidemic typhus and relapsing fever, which can be fatal in up to 40% of patients.
Would be directly being responsible for the spread of typhus and (maybe even) the death of several human children or even monks in your community outweigh the Bad Kamma you would incur for leaving the lice be on oyur cut-off hair?

Now, the discussion starts to get interesting, as I am sure you thought about that and have a good answer ready...

My answer would be: the precepts are training rules, not commandments; especially the precept about killing can never be fulfilled completely, as our bodies are actively, constantly killing small life forms, as just our movement around kills multitudes of small organisms, and even vegetarian food is the reason for a myriad of deaths. Production of a computer to enable you to have a discussion about the precepts, has led to millions of dead organisms. Just doing nothing, unluckily, does also not help, as then our own bodies would die, leading not only to our death, but to all the life forms within us.
Therefore, the minimization of harm must be the guiding principle when following a precept (and, if harm is done, the acceptance of the Kammic consequences for ourselves). As the Kammic pre-conditions to be reborn as a human are much higher, and only being reborn into the human sphere allows for a chance to break the circle of Samsara, I have a much higher respnsibility to actively protect and preserve this chance for the hmans around me.

This is born out by the Vinaya:
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Insect ... their_size
However, there does appear to be some differences in the weight of the negative kamma assigned to the killing of smaller beings as compared to larger beings and humans. The Vinaya makes one such distinction, considering murder an offense so serious as to require permanent expulsion from the Sangha (Parajika 3), while killing an animal is a far less serious offence (Pacittiya 62), on a par with insulting someone, idle chatter and having a non-regulation size sitting mat. This distinction is probably based on the idea that the intentions behind killing a fellow human would be markedly stronger and more intense than those behind killing an animal.
...
The Buddha may have allowed the monks and nuns to eat meat according the 3 fold rule, but did not allow them to eat certain meats such as the flesh of humans, elephants, horse, dog, snake, lion, tiger, leopard, bear, and hyena (Mahavagga VI.23.10-15) even if it was generously offered. This again shows a sort of hierarchy with humans at the top, followed by these royal animals (such as elephants and lions), then lower animals, and finally insects.
Of course you could come with intention/motivation. But I don't think it a valid thought that you might not intend for a child or monk to die, just because you chose to keep your lice; but for somebody just thinking one step ahead, I would not be able to accept such an excuse, especially if educated with nowadays scientifc knowledge -- at the Buddha's time, one might have been able to plead innocence on knowing the relationship between microscopic, living pathogens and the spread of infection.

Therefore, what I would do, to keep the precepts *properly*: get rid of the lice to preserve human life, given that in my case only the not yet reached attainment of Arahantship would transcend the situation to a point, where I can do no harm to my surroundings by definition (as only they are still destined to live out their Kamma, mine would have already been spent).
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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