Lying precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Idappaccayata
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Re: Lying precept

Post by Idappaccayata » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:10 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:33 am
Greetings to all ,

I wish to understand more about lying precept . Hope someone or bhante can help . For example ,
Say if my relatives or good friends ask what is my salary and I don't intend to tell them , how should one reply ?
I think in situations like this, humor or sarcasm can go a long way. Saying something like "enough" or "not very much" with a laugh, then changing the subject can be a good way to easily diffuse the situation
The furniture may be exquisite,
And the bars of solid gold,
But once the bird realizes that the cage is a cage,
It finds within that cage
No joy

- Ajahn Jayasaro

James Tan
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Re: Lying precept

Post by James Tan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:10 am

Idappaccayata wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:10 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:33 am
Greetings to all ,

I wish to understand more about lying precept . Hope someone or bhante can help . For example ,
Say if my relatives or good friends ask what is my salary and I don't intend to tell them , how should one reply ?
I think in situations like this, humor or sarcasm can go a long way. Saying something like "enough" or "not very much" with a laugh, then changing the subject can be a good way to easily diffuse the situation
Thanks , this is a better handling .
:reading:

Laurens
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Location: Norfolk, England

Re: Lying precept

Post by Laurens » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:38 am

Why does it matter that these people don't know your actual salary?

What are you trying to protect yourself from?
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

James Tan
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Re: Lying precept

Post by James Tan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:49 am

Laurens wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:38 am
Why does it matter that these people don't know your actual salary?

What are you trying to protect yourself from?
Why does it matter for you ? Instead why not focusing on how to practise not lying precept ? You seems interested in others privacy overstepped people boundary .
:reading:

Laurens
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Location: Norfolk, England

Re: Lying precept

Post by Laurens » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:51 pm

James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:49 am
Why does it matter for you ? Instead why not focusing on how to practise not lying precept ? You seems interested in others privacy overstepped people boundary .
It doesn't matter to me. You can lie to them for all I care.

I'm asking because maybe you have a good reason to be concerned about them knowing your salary, but maybe you don't. If it's a matter of pride, just swallow it and be honest...
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Lying precept

Post by James Tan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:02 pm

Laurens wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:51 pm
James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:49 am
Why does it matter for you ? Instead why not focusing on how to practise not lying precept ? You seems interested in others privacy overstepped people boundary .
It doesn't matter to me. You can lie to them for all I care.

I'm asking because maybe you have a good reason to be concerned about them knowing your salary, but maybe you don't. If it's a matter of pride, just swallow it and be honest...
Buddha walks away when he saw devadatta coming towards him doesn't mean he was afraid of him.
I am trying my best not to violate the precept , everyone is not perfect but since we are learning dhamma , we have to consider many things .
Maybe you are very good in dhamma and training , I don't know , but our society and environment and culture affect us differently .
:reading:

Laurens
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Location: Norfolk, England

Re: Lying precept

Post by Laurens » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:13 pm

James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:02 pm
Buddha walks away when he saw devadatta coming towards him doesn't mean he was afraid of him.
I am trying my best not to violate the precept , everyone is not perfect but since we are learning dhamma , we have to consider many things .
Maybe you are very good in dhamma and training , I don't know , but our society and environment and culture affect us differently .
I don't mean to cause offence, I just can't think of a circumstance in which lying about my salary would be permissible. I can conceive of a situation in which I might like to keep it secret, but if it's a case of either say it or lie about it I don't see why you wouldn't just say it...
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

James Tan
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Lying precept

Post by James Tan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:05 pm

Laurens wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:13 pm
James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:02 pm
Buddha walks away when he saw devadatta coming towards him doesn't mean he was afraid of him.
I am trying my best not to violate the precept , everyone is not perfect but since we are learning dhamma , we have to consider many things .
Maybe you are very good in dhamma and training , I don't know , but our society and environment and culture affect us differently .
I don't mean to cause offence, I just can't think of a circumstance in which lying about my salary would be permissible. I can conceive of a situation in which I might like to keep it secret, but if it's a case of either say it or lie about it I don't see why you wouldn't just say it...
For example ,
Maybe you can't understand if someone about same position in the same company knows of your salary which is higher than s/he , they will create problem and perhaps will bring it to the manager , what do you think will the manager question why I revealed it to others ?!
I don't understand but maybe you never encounter such situation . Sometimes
things are not as simple as you think .
You assumed because of ego , not everything is about saving the face . Either they have difficulty or really out of self image .
But , why not you just let people handle on their own even if it is because of pride .
:reading:

Laurens
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Location: Norfolk, England

Re: Lying precept

Post by Laurens » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:27 pm

James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:05 pm
For example ,
Maybe you can't understand if someone about same position in the same company knows of your salary which is higher than s/he , they will create problem and perhaps will bring it to the manager , what do you think will the manager question why I revealed it to others ?!
I don't understand but maybe you never encounter such situation . Sometimes
things are not as simple as you think .
You assumed because of ego , not everything is about saving the face . Either they have difficulty or really out of self image .
But , why not you just let people handle on their own even if it is because of pride .
I understand the predicament, but I'm not sure how it would necessitate lying.

You could say 'I have been advised not to reveal my salary to my coworkers' if they ask. If you aren't contractually obliged to keep your salary a secret, then your boss couldn't really do much if you did reveal it. All you would have to say in that instance is 'my coworker asked and because I'm an honest person I told them' if the manager is paying people unfairly that is their problem unless they got you to agree not to discuss salaries.

The only reason I assumed pride is because the situation you described doesn't require any lying at all.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

James Tan
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Lying precept

Post by James Tan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Laurens wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:27 pm
James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:05 pm
For example ,
Maybe you can't understand if someone about same position in the same company knows of your salary which is higher than s/he , they will create problem and perhaps will bring it to the manager , what do you think will the manager question why I revealed it to others ?!
I don't understand but maybe you never encounter such situation . Sometimes
things are not as simple as you think .
You assumed because of ego , not everything is about saving the face . Either they have difficulty or really out of self image .
But , why not you just let people handle on their own even if it is because of pride .
I understand the predicament, but I'm not sure how it would necessitate lying.

You could say 'I have been advised not to reveal my salary to my coworkers' if they ask. If you aren't contractually obliged to keep your salary a secret, then your boss couldn't really do much if you did reveal it. All you would have to say in that instance is 'my coworker asked and because I'm an honest person I told them' if the manager is paying people unfairly that is their problem unless they got you to agree not to discuss salaries.

The only reason I assumed pride is because the situation you described doesn't require any lying at all.
No, I am not saying must lies. Working in a place of politics Not everyone is good in handling everything . I have seen two staff clashed and became enemy . You are always assuming and thinking from your position , just like you tried here to view or judge from your angle that everyone concerned over their ego .

Topic is about Precept not Pride but also how to deal without getting into entanglement with other people .

If you would like to pursue about pride and ego, you may open another thread.

Thanks .
:reading:

Laurens
Posts: 493
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Location: Norfolk, England

Re: Lying precept

Post by Laurens » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:28 pm

James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:48 pm
No, I am not saying must lies. Working in a place of politics Not everyone is good in handling everything . I have seen two staff clashed and became enemy . You are always assuming and thinking from your position , just like you tried here to view or judge from your angle that everyone concerned over their ego .

Topic is about Precept not Pride but also how to deal without getting into entanglement with other people .

If you would like to pursue about pride and ego, you may open another thread.

Thanks .
Your original question was about whether lying about your salary was bad kamma, at least that is how I understood it.

When I asked why it matters, and what you are trying to protect, it was a genuine question. Knowing that information would help to give you advice.

You seem to have taken offence to this for some reason, perhaps it was a personal question, but I believe it is relevant. But you don't have to answer it. I mentioned pride because it could be a reason for wanting to lie about your salary. I didn't accuse you of this, in fact I said you might have a good reason, but I was pointing out, for the sake of pointing it out that it might not be for a good reason.

I get the sense that we are getting some things lost in translation here... So I will just add the following, then I'm out:

The answer to how to deal with coworkers asking your salary, without either lying or causing disharmony is simple. Tell them politely that you don't want them to know your salary.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

chownah
Posts: 7576
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lying precept

Post by chownah » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:21 am

Laurens wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:28 pm
The answer to how to deal with coworkers asking your salary, without either lying or causing disharmony is simple. Tell them politely that you don't want them to know your salary.
I have lived in thailand for a number of years. I am not particularly perceptive when it comes to observing, analyzing, and understanding how social interactions work. I have lived all my number of years in a small village and most of my interactions have been with people in my village.
The above is the disclaimer.
I think that in asia the great bulk of society is based on people doing things "the way things are done". People strive to fit in and they do this by doing things the usual way. No one wants to be seen as different especially when it comes to the norms of social conduct and intercourse. The saying "the nail that sticks up will be pounded down" comes to mind. Given this, since it seems that in asia the social norm is to tell people how much money you make it is noticeable if someone refuses to tell you.....by not doing things the way they are usually done one distinguishes oneself as being unsocial, distant, unfriendly, and suspect with perhaps something to hide. If someone asked me how much money I make I would tell them that in america we do not talk about this.....I don't need to worry about not fitting in because the fact that I am a foreigner guarantees that I will never fit in to the general flow of thai society at any level. This does not mean that I am not accepted....it means rather that I am accepted as an oddity or anomoly who is excused (in most things) from following thai social customs. If I were a thai person and didn't want people to know I think I would probably lie. It is an open secret that lieing about inconsequential matters is not disrespectful in thai culture but on the contrary if done with the intent to create social harmony and good feelings all around then it is somewhat of a virtue.
chownah

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seeker242
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Re: Lying precept

Post by seeker242 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:22 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:33 am
Greetings to all ,

I wish to understand more about lying precept . Hope someone or bhante can help . For example ,
Say if my relatives or good friends ask what is my salary and I don't intend to tell them , how should one reply ?
Don't say something that's false. :smile:

denise
Posts: 516
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:56 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Lying precept

Post by denise » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:46 pm

hello .....it might save a lot of energy in the long run to tell the truth....it seems for you the sense of guilt from the lie might last longer and be more detrimental to you than telling these people what they probably are already guessing at....although, if telling them the truth will cause harm to you or others then perhaps the white lie must suffice for now...there are worse things...

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