How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Polar Bear
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by Polar Bear » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:44 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:33 am
Polar Bear wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:23 am
A rare word to use, ...
Perhaps the term winging is more popular down here with the penguins than up in the north with the bears... :tongue:

:heart:
Mike
Ahh, I see.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."


TRobinson465
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:23 am

I think Sam's post on the Aghata Sutta is the best way to deal. I'm actually going to bookmark that sutta so i can read it again in the future. There are some cases where you just have to stand up for something tho. In which case I have found that there's a few strategies to keep in mind from my experience in some nasty debates.

1. Know the background of the people you are dealing with. (for instance, if you are dealing with a group of people and they identify with a particular group or tradition or something) You can use it in some cases.

2. Fact based argument can only go so far. try using some cornering strategies too, as exhibited in the Cula Saccaka Sutta https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html
"Yes, Master Gotama, he would wield the power in his own domain to execute those who deserve execution, to fine those who deserve to be fined, and to banish those who deserve to be banished. Even these oligarchic groups, such as the Vajjians & Mallans, wield the power in their own domains to execute those who deserve execution, to fine those who deserve to be fined, and to banish those who deserve to be banished, [5] to say nothing of a consecrated, noble-warrior king such as King Pasenadi of Kosala, or King Ajātasattu Vedehiputta of Magadha. He would wield it, and he would deserve to wield it."

"What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, 'Form is my self,' do you wield power over that form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'?"

When this was said, Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son was silent."
3. Dont be too petty in the argument itself but have a petty mindset and keep track of things the your opponent says in case you can use it for #2.

For example, lets say someone says "provide proof of all your claims" but doesnt actually provide proof himself. Dont ramble and whing about the hypocrisy, try to use that as a cornering strategy. "Sure, here it is _____...but here you said _____ ill wait while you provide evidence of this..." For this example it works well if you happen to know that that person is BSing on that particular point and doesnt have any proof. But by implying that you assume they have it, which you know is non-existent, it'll shut them up for a while.

4. Keep in mind that you can't change everyones mind. Even the Buddha himself could not teach everyone because some simply had too much "dust in their eyes". Sometimes the best you can do is provide the counter argument effectively. Some people will even flat out tell you there is nothing that can change thier mind about a particular topic. its something you have to accept.

5. Recognize that if they start resorting to cheap insults like "oh all you do is..." "why cant you prove..." (as if you are the only person who must have the burden of proof) instead of giving an actual counter argument to the topic at hand you have probably presented your case as air-tight as you can already and they are just resorting to that out of desperation because they cant come up with legitimate counter arguments on the actual topic itself. At this stage its probably close to the end of the debate as they will have not much else to say except "all you do is blah blah blah" "theres not point in arguing with you blah blah blah" :tantrum:

6. If you are dealing with a debate where you are grotesquely outnumbered or that was just particularly nasty you can have nightmares about it for over a year after it happened. So try your best to keep the Aghata Sutta in mind. :meditate:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

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rightviewftw
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:51 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:23 am
...
Seems like you have had some experience with this.

I don't really have much more to add, i have however concluded that on this board it is better to ignore certain people completely or not post at all as long as such behaviors are allowed.

What gets me is if i talk to someone and other people start saying i am wrong bla bla bla, even if they are on ignore list i still get notificatons and if they send me pms even if i have made auto-delete rules i still get notifications. It is just no way around it and it is a technical flaw as well to that extent. It is like putting ear plugs irl but people are still in your face making gestures while you are trying to ignore them.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:55 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:29 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:34 pm
If the cheating cannot be overcome should the superior party also cheat or should they forfeit the match if it pertains to a Dhamma discussion on the forum?
The Buddha encountered many fools who wanted to argue with him. Many, many fools.
He refused to argue with them.
It's that simple, just don't argue. Arguing is a symptom of Big Ego, and strong clinging to views.
Where have you read this? I have only seen several suttas where the buddha accepted invitations for debate and he obviously wiped the floor with his opponents and even converted some. The problem here is our original poster is more concerned about the 'truth' than what is endearing and beneficial to others. This is what happens when we ignore the practical aspect and cling to view
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

TRobinson465
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:58 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:51 am


What gets me is if i talk to someone and other people start saying i am wrong bla bla bla, even if they are on ignore list i still get notificatons and if they send me pms even if i have made auto-delete rules i still get notifications. It is just no way around it and it is a technical flaw as well to that extent. It is like putting ear plugs irl but people are still in your face making gestures while you are trying to ignore them.
In your case it seems like a technical issue with the forum you may want to suggest to the admins.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

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salayatananirodha
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:58 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:51 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:23 am
...
Seems like you have had some experience with this.

I don't really have much more to add, i have however concluded that on this board it is better to ignore certain people completely or not post at all as long as such behaviors are allowed.

What gets me is if i talk to someone and other people start saying i am wrong bla bla bla, even if they are on ignore list i still get notificatons and if they send me pms even if i have made auto-delete rules i still get notifications. It is just no way around it and it is a technical flaw as well to that extent. It is like putting ear plugs irl but people are still in your face making gestures while you are trying to ignore them.
What an opportunity to practice now rather than proceed with a tendency to weaponize the dhamma. images from MN 62
Screen Shot 2018-07-28 at 23.56.53.png
Screen Shot 2018-07-28 at 23.57.10.png
And more: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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rightviewftw
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:14 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:58 am
What an opportunity to practice now rather than proceed with a tendency to weaponize the dhamma. images from MN 62Screen Shot 2018-07-28 at
And more: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I don't think it is a good way to practice, being annoyed, frustrated and restless. Voluntarily seeking out such company is rather foolish imo because it is like not having compassion for oneself and self-harm. I think it is actually quite terrible for the practice.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:20 am

Yes, you do not need to subject yourself to that, if you are uncontrolled and go about provoking and attacking and such. That is for no one's benefit, and what ever was said to you does not make it right.
It's not as if your motives are wholly bad, it's just that when you let your anger post for you the results are unwholesome, please consider that.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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rightviewftw
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:23 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:20 am
Yes, you do not need to subject yourself to that, if you are uncontrolled and go about provoking and attacking and such. That is for no one's benefit, and what ever was said to you does not make it right.
It's not as if your motives are wholly bad, it's just that when you let your anger post for you the results are unwholesome, please consider that.
I mean why would you go to a place if you know you are going to get abused and people will be trying to provoke you. Much better to avoid that environment altogether than going there to test one's metta

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salayatananirodha
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:46 am

This is a good question, do you know the answer?
I gather you want to come and share and learn but this quarrelsomeness and contentiousness does not effect that aim. These drawbacks are not to be overlooked.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

chownah
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by chownah » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:47 am

If someone perceived you as being an ignorant brute how would you like them to respond to you?
chownah

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rightviewftw
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:55 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:47 am
If someone perceived you as being an ignorant brute how would you like them to respond to you?
chownah
I would prefer them to be kind to me and most respectful
salayatananirodha wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:46 am
This is a good question, do you know the answer?
I gather you want to come and share and learn but this quarrelsomeness and contentiousness does not effect that aim. These drawbacks are not to be overlooked.
If i know the answer to
"why would you go to a place if you know you are going to get abused and people will be trying to provoke you?"
I really like to learn and share so that's why i come and i guess i am attached to the learning and sharing so i come in spite of my better judgement. I also think there are some nice people here and that is probably delight in a group. So it is a combination of wholesome and unwholesome reasons.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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budo
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by budo » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:43 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:55 am
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:29 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:34 pm
If the cheating cannot be overcome should the superior party also cheat or should they forfeit the match if it pertains to a Dhamma discussion on the forum?
The Buddha encountered many fools who wanted to argue with him. Many, many fools.
He refused to argue with them.
It's that simple, just don't argue. Arguing is a symptom of Big Ego, and strong clinging to views.
Where have you read this? I have only seen several suttas where the buddha accepted invitations for debate and he obviously wiped the floor with his opponents and even converted some. The problem here is our original poster is more concerned about the 'truth' than what is endearing and beneficial to others. This is what happens when we ignore the practical aspect and cling to view
The people with the highest post counts are the most ignorant. They think verbal mental masturbation will increase their knowledge and wisdom. But it's just the blind leading the blind in circles. These people are spinning tires and burning themselves out and getting frustrated and then releasing their anger through forum posting

As Einstein said doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

As I said, they're mentally masturbating, they're addicted, they can't stop posting, they may have removed all other addictions in life but they're still addicted to mental masturbation which they rationalize as "seeking the truth".

Then they say jhana is addicting, yeah well at least jhana isn't addiction to stressful arguing on the internet rubbing egoes with other ignorant and arrogant people.

At the end of the day you can't get enlightened reading text. Yeah yeah, don't resort to that stream entry non meditation fruition excuse, that doesn't apply to these times. If they met the buddha in real life, he'd tell them to stop talking so much, stop thinking so much, to turn off the internet, to go to the forest, to a foot of a tree, to sit down and cross their legs and move their attention to the forefront, watch the breath go in and out, and relax their mental activity and enter first jhana.

The buddha advocated seclusion and meditation, not greek Acropolis debate club with plato and socrates.
Last edited by budo on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:46 am

Hi RV,
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:55 am
I really like to learn and share so that's why i come and i guess i am attached to the learning and sharing so i come in spite of my better judgement. I also think there are some nice people here and that is probably delight in a group. So it is a combination of wholesome and unwholesome reasons.
You make some valuable contributions, so I hope you will keep coming.

However, you seem quite attached to being right, and also somewhat dismissive of possible alternative interpretations. This invariably leads to endless arguments.

You have some useful knowledge, and if you wish to share it more painlessly, then I suggest you study the posts of members such as Ven Dhammanando, whose posts are well thought out, and tend to leave little room for argument. See, for example:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32484#p482442
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&p=479294#p479294

Such posts are hard to argue with because they clearly state the assumptions or references in ways such as:
"According to X book of the Abhidhamma, Y"
"According to Bhikkhu A's writings, B"
and so on.

Other members may still post argumentative replies, such as "I think the Abhidhamma is dumb", or "I think Bhikkhu A is an idiot", but it's easy to ignore such intemperate posts when they are about someone else (the Abhidhamma/Bhikkhu A/ etc).

Whereas, if you post:
"I think Y"
"Ithink B"
Then you will feel obliged to reply to members who say "Y is clearly misguided" or "B is a stupid interpretation".

:heart:
Mike

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