How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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rightviewftw
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How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:34 pm

We might occasionally encounter these vile, ignorant brutes and their views.

Now these "slow" people could never "win" fairly so they tend to cheat and use lowly tactics. As i see it if the weaker opponent cheats it is still possible to win unless the cheating is of such nature that it cannot be overcome.

If the cheating cannot be overcome should the superior party also cheat or should they forfeit the match if it pertains to a Dhamma discussion on the forum?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

markandeya
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes

Post by markandeya » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:42 pm

Maybe best to let them win if it just a self protecting dispute, it if has direct effects on others then maybe some other method is needed.

It also may depend on whats being spoken about as somethings are worthy of being defended, even at the cost of ones own personal convenience and reputation . Most people I have noticed especially online and usually from the small island in the Atlantic is that they can only think and communicate in black and white.

I had the unfortunate experience of being around aggressive Atheists and Theists debate about 20 years ago. The over spill comes into dharma traditions which is a shame.

dharmacorps
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:45 pm

Don't get involved in debate "matches" with people and you won't have this problem. See where your attachments to your views are and leave it at that.

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Sam Vara
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:52 pm

This section is about "Family Life and Relationships". Discussions do take place within family life and within other relationships, but the purpose of this section is not to air grievances or settle scores relating to discussions here on Dhamma Wheel.

Please could contributors ensure that they bear this in mind prior to posting, or the thread will be locked.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:29 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:34 pm
If the cheating cannot be overcome should the superior party also cheat or should they forfeit the match if it pertains to a Dhamma discussion on the forum?
The Buddha encountered many fools who wanted to argue with him. Many, many fools.
He refused to argue with them.
It's that simple, just don't argue. Arguing is a symptom of Big Ego, and strong clinging to views.

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rightviewftw
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:42 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:52 pm
This section is about "Family Life and Relationships". Discussions do take place within family life and within other relationships, but the purpose of this section is not to air grievances or settle scores relating to discussions here on Dhamma Wheel.

Please could contributors ensure that they bear this in mind prior to posting, or the thread will be locked.
can you move this to Sila then?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Sam Vara
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:30 pm

Topic moved to the "Sila" section, where it is more appropriate. But please note that score-settling, complaining about erstwhile opponents in debates, etc., is not appropriate anywhere, and will lead to the thread being locked.

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Sam Vara
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:43 pm

I would imagine that the feeling of being wronged in discussion are the same as being wronged in other capacities. The Buddha frequently addresses this topic, and one of my favourites is this:
"Thinking, 'He has done me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

...One does not get worked up over impossibilities.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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rightviewftw
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:45 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:29 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:34 pm
If the cheating cannot be overcome should the superior party also cheat or should they forfeit the match if it pertains to a Dhamma discussion on the forum?
The Buddha encountered many fools who wanted to argue with him. Many, many fools.
He refused to argue with them.
It's that simple, just don't argue. Arguing is a symptom of Big Ego, and strong clinging to views.
There is one instance in the Sutta where a person was trying to debate the Buddha and when the Buddha cornered him he would not answer then it is said that The Buddha told him that his head would split into seven pieces if he did not answer a legitimately posed question three times.
Then the Blessed One said to him, "Answer now, Aggivessana. This is not the time to be silent. When anyone doesn't answer when asked a legitimate question by the Tathāgata up to three times, his head splits into seven pieces right here."

Now on that occasion the spirit (yakkha) Vajirapāṇin [Thunderbolt-in-Hand], carrying an iron thunderbolt, was poised in the air above Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son, (thinking,) "If Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son doesn't answer when asked a legitimate question by the Blessed One up to three times, I will split his head into seven pieces right here."
...
In the same way, Aggivessana, when you are interrogated, rebuked, & pressed by me with regard to your own statement, you are empty, void, mistaken. But it was you who made this statement before the assembly in Vesālī: 'I see no contemplative or brahman, the head of an order, the head of a group, or even one who claims to be an arahant, rightly self-awakened, who — engaged in debate with me — would not shiver, quiver, shake, & break out in sweat under the armpits. Even if I were to engage a senseless stump in debate, it — engaged with me in debate — would shiver, quiver, & shake, to say nothing of a human being.' But now some drops of sweat coming out of your forehead, drenching your upper robe, are landing on the ground, whereas now I have no sweat on my body." And the Blessed One uncovered his golden-colored body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son fell silent, abashed, sitting with his shoulders drooping, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Sam Vara
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:49 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:45 pm
There is one instance in the Sutta where a person was trying to debate the Buddha and when the Buddha cornered him he would not answer then it is said that The Buddha told him that his head would split into seven pieces if he did not answer a legitimately posed question three times.
A good reminder for people who value their cranial integrity and find themselves cornered by the Buddha.

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rightviewftw
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:54 pm

In regards to the topic i think that tolerating them is somewhat cowardly. The Great Pandura debate is a good example imo where christians were debating the Sangha and the christians became nasty at some point. I mean had the Sangha forfeited that Debate there would probably be no Buddhism in Sri Lanka nowadays.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:49 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:45 pm
There is one instance in the Sutta where a person was trying to debate the Buddha and when the Buddha cornered him he would not answer then it is said that The Buddha told him that his head would split into seven pieces if he did not answer a legitimately posed question three times.
A good reminder for people who value their cranial integrity and find themselves cornered by the Buddha.
I think that remaining silent when asked a legitimate question is just a miserably low way to live.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:58 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:45 pm
See where your attachments to your views are and leave it at that.
Dharmacorps often seems to give wise advice.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:34 pm
Now these "slow" people could never "win" fairly...
The Buddha advised:
Dhp 201. Victory begets enmity; the defeated dwell in pain. Happily the peaceful live, discarding both victory and defeat.
I hope this helps, friend. :console:

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rightviewftw
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:04 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:58 pm
dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:45 pm
See where your attachments to your views are and leave it at that.
Dharmacorps often seems to give wise advice.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:34 pm
Now these "slow" people could never "win" fairly...
The Buddha advised:
Dhp 201. Victory begets enmity; the defeated dwell in pain. Happily the peaceful live, discarding both victory and defeat.
I hope this helps, friend. :console:
ye it explains why i beget so much enmity, must be all the ass-whooping causing it
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:10 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:04 pm
ye it explains why i beget so much enmity, must be all the ass-whooping causing it
It OK. Just let it go :thumbsup:. I walking to the beach, now, to enjoy the warm sunny elements.

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one_awakening
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Re: How to deal with ignorant brutes in a discussion

Post by one_awakening » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:58 pm

A lot of heated discussions start off discussing a topic but reach a point where it's no longer about the topic, but more about winning the argument. I have noticed that I have done this in the past as well.

It occurred to me one day, "Why is it so important to prove to the other person, that I am right and they are wrong?" The answer is, it's not important. The "I am right" self emerges and when someone threatens that self, then we must defend it otherwise that self ceases to be. Even if it means putting forward totally illogical arguments. I must not lose.

I now respond with noble silence. This way, the "I am right" self is replaced with the "I don't need to prove anything to anyone" self. This is a far more peaceful state.
Last edited by one_awakening on Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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