Sex before marriage

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Sam Vara
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:09 pm

manas wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:56 pm
Would folks agree...
This folk would! I think you have summarised it well.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:09 pm

KiwiNFLFan wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:52 am
Did the Buddha explain in the suttas where he mentions sex with someone "under the protection of their parents" what this actually means?
I already did my best to explain this.
KiwiNFLFan wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:52 am
Surely the Buddha did not endorse a view akin to that of Islam/Christian Patriarchy where an unmarried woman is under her father's authority..
The suttas teach parents find a marriage partner for their teenage daughters. Regardless, don't parents exist to protect their children?
KiwiNFLFan wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:52 am
until she marries and then she is under the husband's authority?
The Buddha taught a husband gives a wife authority in the home (DN 31) however there is one sutta (SN 37.28) that refers to the authority of the husband.
KiwiNFLFan wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:52 am
This sort of teaching does not sound very Buddhist, as the Buddha affirmed that women are equally as able to attain nibbana as men are.
I can't see how Nibbana is relevant to this. In Nibbana, sexual intercourse does not occur therefore sex before or after marriage does not occur.
KiwiNFLFan wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:52 am
Since in Western countries it's a trend for young people to move out of their parents' home once they turn 18 or leave school (especially if they're going to college in a different city or state), does that mean that they're still under their parents' protection? Is a 21 year old woman who has a college degree and is working and paying to rent her own house considered "under the protection of her parents"?
It means Western culture is different to Buddhist culture.
manas wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:56 pm
Since we are in the 21st Century now, I think common sense and the principle of 'do no harm' can inform our decisions, rather than merely poring over possible interpretations of an ancient text from another time and culture, even if it is attributed to the wisest person who ever lived.
This seems to be inferring that marriage, relationships and families are doing better/more successful in the 21st century?

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manas
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by manas » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:02 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:40 am
Why would a practising Buddhist have sex without commitment?
The same reason a lay Buddhist might eat a piece of chocolate cake: because it is pleasant, and so long as it does not harm anyone (the Buddha's guidelines on this seem very reasonable) and is legal according to the laws of the Land, it's not a big deal. Intentionally squashing an ant is far worse (and IS a clear breach of Dhammic principles), yet folks tend to arc up around sex more. I'd say this is partly due to having grown up in a Judeo-Christian culture; some of the dye sticks, even if you don't believe in it. (Another legacy of the Catholic Church is feelings of guilt around pleasure).
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:03 am

manas wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:02 pm
The same reason a lay Buddhist might eat a piece of chocolate cake..
The suttas appear to say any act motivated purely by lust (such as eating a piece of chocolate cake) is unwholesome. Regardless, eating chocolate cake does not appear to be included in the 5 precepts. Sex appears to be included as a basic precept because unskillful sex wounds people; or causes addiction or confusion in people. Women scorned or unfulfilled destroy ex-husbands in hostile & financially destructive divorces. :|
manas wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:02 pm
so long as it does not harm anyone (the Buddha's guidelines on this seem very reasonable) and is legal according to the laws of the Land, it's not a big deal.
The Buddha's guidelines are all about non-harming. These guidelines also say parents have a duty to arrange the marriage of their children when the children come of age. As for the laws of the land, prostitution, pornography, orgies, etc, are generally legal. Also, law makers in many Western jurisdictions have been attempting to lower the age of sexual consent to 12 years old. The laws of the land have no relationship to Buddhism.
manas wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:02 pm
Intentionally squashing an ant is far worse...
Squashing an ant is a trivial issue in the Vinaya. I have seen senior monks squash many ants at once (when working).
manas wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:02 pm
(and IS a clear breach of Dhammic principles), yet folks tend to arc up around sex more. I'd say this is partly due to having grown up in a Judeo-Christian culture; some of the dye sticks, even if you don't believe in it. (Another legacy of the Catholic Church is feelings of guilt around pleasure).
Christianity did not exist when the Buddha taught. The Buddha was not influenced by Christianity or by Judaism. The Buddhist precept or any teachings in Judeo-Christianity appear unrelated to "guilt around pleasure". Instead, they appear related to preventing suffering & rebirth in hungry ghost, animal & hell-realms.
Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world... the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
The law of the land allows promiscuity. But the Buddha said promiscuity is the animal world.
manas wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:02 pm
...Dhammic principles...
Personally, I would not get attached to Dhamma; particularly in attempts to make oneself morally righteous in a Judeo-Christian manner. Like Jews looking for loopholes in the Torah & Talmud; many Western Buddhists having grown up in a Judeo-Christian culture, attempt to make themselves morally self-righteous by picking & choosing literal excerpts of the Dhamma teachings (while ignoring the spirit of the teachings). I suppose what I am attempting to say is - if you identify your self as a 'Western Buddhist' but have not arranged the marriage of your children - don't worry about it. :mrgreen:

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manas
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by manas » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:08 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:03 am

......................
Sometimes you misunderstand what i have written, Doodoot.

OF COURSE the Buddha lived before Christ, do you think I'm stupid? dont cast aspersions. I was talking about OURSELVES, having grown up in a culture influenced by the hang-ups around sex, that the Church (or in your case, Islam?) seems to encourage in people. I went to Catholic schools when young, so I also admit it's affected me too.

My eyes are quite sore, i wont answer the rest of what u wrote. My health is more important than worrying about refuting anything else, although to be honest , I'm far from being licentious and I don't have casual sex; I'm just saying, I dont judge others who do so, so long as they don't harm anyone, are both consenting adults, etc etc etc etc as has already been discussed.
In peace , and here's to lower blood pressure. :toast:
:namaste:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:19 am

manas wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:08 pm
dont cast aspersions. I was talking about OURSELVES,
Thanks but it seems you were talking about your self.
manas wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:08 pm
having grown up in a culture influenced by the hang-ups around sex, that the Church (or in your case, Islam?) seems to encourage in people. I went to Catholic schools when young, so I also admit it's affected me too.
i went to Catholic school for last 5 years of high school but never had any hang ups about sex. I first had sex at 15 yo. My views about sex changed with I independently saw very serious dukkha in it; which remains the same today; particularly on the female side. Unlike Islamic-like views that see women as "meat" or "chocolate cake", I view women like the Buddha, namely, as mothers, sisters & daughters.
Australian Muslim leader compares uncovered women to exposed meat

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/ ... a.marktran
:alien:
manas wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:08 pm
I dont judge others who do so, so long as they don't harm anyone, are both consenting adults, etc etc etc etc as has already been discussed.
Your ideas sound strongly grounded in Christianity; particularly the focus on not judging others. In Buddhism, we focus on actions & results. Consenting adults do things like take drugs, engage in war, sexual promiscuity, gambling, exploit others, etc, which lead to an increase in craving, pain & suffering. Unskillful sex affects people emotionally, creates neediness & can adversely effect parenting & relationship skills. Its not like eating chocolate cake. Use of anti-depressants is growing very strongly & obviously linked to the so-called "sexual revolution" of the 1960s. That is why it is a precept and, imo, the most important precept for the spiritual life.

Regards :heart:

chownah
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by chownah » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:51 am

The entertainment media depict sex as being fun.....and they depict the sex before marriage as being more fun than sex after marriage. Is there anyone who denies that this has an impact on sexually maturing individuals?
chownah

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Bundokji
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:54 am

Is not sex before or after marriage based on lust? can one have sex without lust? what does marriage change?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:05 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:19 am
Use of anti-depressants is growing very strongly & obviously linked to the so-called "sexual revolution" of the 1960s. That is why it is a precept and, imo, the most important precept for the spiritual life.
I wouldn't disagree with your assessment of promiscuity for a moment, but this might need a bit more analysis if it is to be totally convincing. The use of antidepressants and the "sexual revolution" might both be caused by different factors; we can't rely on a mere historical conjunction to link them. Either or both might be independently affected by numerous other factors. Globalisation, information technology, pollution, soft drug use, decline of communities, decline of patriarchy, increased education, increased travel, working women, the medicalisation of pre-existent conditions, etc., etc.

Many people might argue that it would be possible to eliminate whatever is causing the consumption of anti-depressants, and engage in widespread guilt-free and harmless promiscuity. Not a view I subscribe to, of course, but it might be beneficial to deal with it here.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:08 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:54 am
Is not sex before or after marriage based on lust? can one have sex without lust? what does marriage change?
The intensity of the lust! See the "Coolidge Effect"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:19 am
take drugs, engage in war, sexual promiscuity, gambling, exploit others, etc, which lead to an increase in craving, pain & suffering. Unskillful sex affects people emotionally, creates neediness & can adversely effect parenting & relationship skills. Its not like eating chocolate cake. Use of anti-depressants is growing very strongly & obviously linked to the so-called "sexual revolution" of the 1960s. That is why it is a precept and, imo, the most important precept for the spiritual life.

Regards :heart:
I wouldnt count war and exploiting others as the same as sex, as this does indeed cause suffering to others. and the point he was making is that between consenting adults, there is no suffering caused.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

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Bundokji
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:21 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:08 am
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:54 am
Is not sex before or after marriage based on lust? can one have sex without lust? what does marriage change?
The intensity of the lust! See the "Coolidge Effect"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect
Most of my married male friends reported increased lust after marriage, not towards their own wives, but towards other females. When boredom with their partners strikes, the mind begins to seek new adventurers.

So, marriage does not seem to reduce lust, and comes with a whole package of commitments and attachments.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:10 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:21 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:08 am
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:54 am
Is not sex before or after marriage based on lust? can one have sex without lust? what does marriage change?
The intensity of the lust! See the "Coolidge Effect"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect
Most of my married male friends reported increased lust after marriage, not towards their own wives, but towards other females. When boredom with their partners strikes, the mind begins to seek new adventurers.

So, marriage does not seem to reduce lust, and comes with a whole package of commitments and attachments.
Sure, that certainly happens. But I think that being faithful leads to a diminution of that extra-marital lust, in that one can simply put that desire from one's mind, and gradually erode it. The mind seems to learn that the extra-marital desire does not lead anywhere, if the vows are kept. And then the ageing factor begins to work, of course, although men in particular might be reluctant to acknowledge that. In many cultures, a perpetual readiness for sex is associated with virility and health.

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Bundokji
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:23 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:10 am
Sure, that certainly happens. But I think that being faithful leads to a diminution of that extra-marital lust, in that one can simply put that desire from one's mind, and gradually erode it. The mind seems to learn that the extra-marital desire does not lead anywhere, if the vows are kept. And then the ageing factor begins to work, of course, although men in particular might be reluctant to acknowledge that. In many cultures, a perpetual readiness for sex is associated with virility and health.
I remember encountering one of your old posts in which you described a teacher in a retreat asking the group how many celibates are there, and some raised their hands, and then he asked to what extent they do it because they cannot get sex. It was something of that line.

While what you raised is true and valid, the issue of lust seem more complicated than what we are describing. Personally, i don't marriage as a real solution to the problem of lust (for those who see lust as a problem). I have never understood why sex through marriage is morally superior to casual sex, except cultural baseless assertions.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:05 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:23 am

I remember encountering one of your old posts in which you described a teacher in a retreat asking the group how many celibates are there, and some raised their hands, and then he asked to what extent they do it because they cannot get sex. It was something of that line.

While what you raised is true and valid, the issue of lust seem more complicated than what we are describing. Personally, i don't marriage as a real solution to the problem of lust (for those who see lust as a problem). I have never understood why sex through marriage is morally superior to casual sex, except cultural baseless assertions.
Yes, I think sex is an issue which tends to evade a comprehensive intellectual understanding. Without getting too Freudian about it, there is a tendency for our rationalisations and theories about it to be coloured by our hormones and unresolved issues in a way that is quite unique. As Camille Paglia said, it's the place where nature and culture intersect, so we need to be well-informed about both.

I don't think that marriage is a solution to the "problem of lust". I think it is worth being clear with ourselves why we think that sexual desire is a problem at all - especially within the context of Buddhism. On the one hand, the wariness might stem from the damage to others that unrestrained sexual activity leaves in its wake; a kind of consequentialist ethic which would point to the betrayals, loss of confidence, feelings of being used, trashed reputations, etc. which can occur. DooDoot makes this point very clearly above. Our sexual expressions harm other people because we are using them.

On the other hand, the wariness might focus on the damage to ourselves which occurs when we follow our impulses and become preoccupied with a source of pleasure. The kammic damage here is the more immediately obvious one of being trapped in samsara, being unable to pull oneself out of the cycle of excitement, discharge, and ennui. This applies to our sexual fantasies and also masturbation. Our sexual expressions harm us, because those expressions are using us.

Depending on which of these two aspects of sexual desire we are concerned with, there might be answers to the question of whether marital sex is in any sense morally superior.

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