Sex before marriage

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:35 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:34 am
There's also this part which i have highlighted.
The impression is you view the relevant teachings as mere "rules" rather than something (dhamma) related to minimizing suffering.
I view the Dhamma as related to minimizing suffering. Im just saying that in this particular case I don't see convincing evidence that you absolutely must be married to have sex in order to uphold the third training rule.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:40 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:38 am
I view the Dhamma as related to minimizing suffering. Im just saying that in this particular case I don't see convincing evidence that you absolutely must be married to have sex in order to uphold the third training rule.
The teachings appear straightforward to me. The impression is you don't see convincing evidence how they relate to minimizing suffering.

As for marriage, it is a sign of commitment. It accords with the Dhamma of not engaging in kamma primarily motivated by lust.

Why would a practising Buddhist have sex without commitment?

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:40 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:38 am
I view the Dhamma as related to minimizing suffering. Im just saying that in this particular case I don't see convincing evidence that you absolutely must be married to have sex in order to uphold the third training rule.
The teachings appear straightforward to me. The impression is you don't see convincing evidence how they relate to minimizing suffering.
That particular verse and commentary wasn't straightforwardly banning sex before marriage, as it left too many loose ends. You seem very focused on the Pali scriptures however, and I am coming from a focus on real world POV which you keep dismissing as irrelavent. So I think we are on very different pages as to how we would like to discuss this topic. Given that, I will leave it be. Thank you for the commentary you posted at the beginning, I found that very interesting. :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:40 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:38 am
I view the Dhamma as related to minimizing suffering. Im just saying that in this particular case I don't see convincing evidence that you absolutely must be married to have sex in order to uphold the third training rule.
The teachings appear straightforward to me. The impression is you don't see convincing evidence how they relate to minimizing suffering.

As for marriage, it is a sign of commitment. It accords with the Dhamma of not engaging in kamma primarily motivated by lust.

Why would a practising Buddhist have sex without commitment?
I'm thinking solely from a POV of would this cause "peril" or negative kamma that would take fruit in the future or something. I agree your idea of committment is very much a better path, and full chastity even better. My focus was merely on the definition of the rule.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:16 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:47 am
I am coming from a focus on real world POV which you keep dismissing as irrelavent.
The Dhamma is contrary to the world. That is why the world (loka) is irrelevant.
167. Follow not the vulgar way; live not in heedlessness; hold not false views; linger not long in worldly existence.

174. Blind is the world; here only a few possess insight. Only a few, like birds escaping from the net, go to realms of bliss.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
:alien:
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:49 am
My focus was merely on the definition of the rule.
Na. Its just superficial rather than "focus". I spent most of my working life working in legal interpretation.

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:19 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:16 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:47 am
I am coming from a focus on real world POV which you keep dismissing as irrelavent.
The Dhamma is contrary to the world. That is why the world (loka) is irrelevant.
167. Follow not the vulgar way; live not in heedlessness; hold not false views; linger not long in worldly existence.

174. Blind is the world; here only a few possess insight. Only a few, like birds escaping from the net, go to realms of bliss.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
:alien:
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:49 am
My focus was merely on the definition of the rule.
Na. Its just superficial rather than "focus". I spent most of my working life working in legal interpretation.
My "superficial" was merely the definition of the rule?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:16 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:47 am
I am coming from a focus on real world POV which you keep dismissing as irrelavent.
The Dhamma is contrary to the world. That is why the world (loka) is irrelevant.
167. Follow not the vulgar way; live not in heedlessness; hold not false views; linger not long in worldly existence.

174. Blind is the world; here only a few possess insight. Only a few, like birds escaping from the net, go to realms of bliss.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
Yes I agree, but that is where I am coming from in my arguments. You may dismiss them as irrelavent, and perhaps they are, im just explaining the basis of my points.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

KiwiNFLFan
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by KiwiNFLFan » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:52 am

Did the Buddha explain in the suttas where he mentions sex with someone "under the protection of their parents" what this actually means? Surely the Buddha did not endorse a view akin to that of Islam/Christian Patriarchy where an unmarried woman is under her father's authority until she marries and then she is under the husband's authority? This sort of teaching does not sound very Buddhist, as the Buddha affirmed that women are equally as able to attain nibbana as men are.

Since in Western countries it's a trend for young people to move out of their parents' home once they turn 18 or leave school (especially if they're going to college in a different city or state), does that mean that they're still under their parents' protection? Is a 21 year old woman who has a college degree and is working and paying to rent her own house considered "under the protection of her parents"?

And are certain Thai traditions (eg Dhammakaya) more conservative in this regard than the average Thai Buddhist?

2600htz
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by 2600htz » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:31 pm

Hello:

In DN-27, the origin of the world, the Buddha gives an account on how the first human beings begin to have sex. At that time, any kind of sex was considered immoral, even by normal people, and beings who had sex weren’t allowed to enter a village or town for one or two months.

Im pretty sure if the Buddha would have been born at that time, he would have advised society to abstain from any kind of sexual intercourse. But he was born at a time where it was already normal among lay people, like it is today. So advising having permission of the parents, not being involved with prostitutes, etc. was the more rational thing to do (if he went too hard people would have not accepted his teachings, if he went too soft people would not get any benefit). So i think the point is that the relationship of a Buddha with society is a grey area.

Regards.

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:53 pm

KiwiNFLFan wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:52 am
Did the Buddha explain in the suttas where he mentions sex with someone "under the protection of their parents" what this actually means? Surely the Buddha did not endorse a view akin to that of Islam/Christian Patriarchy where an unmarried woman is under her father's authority until she marries and then she is under the husband's authority? This sort of teaching does not sound very Buddhist, as the Buddha affirmed that women are equally as able to attain nibbana as men are.

Since in Western countries it's a trend for young people to move out of their parents' home once they turn 18 or leave school (especially if they're going to college in a different city or state), does that mean that they're still under their parents' protection? Is a 21 year old woman who has a college degree and is working and paying to rent her own house considered "under the protection of her parents"?

And are certain Thai traditions (eg Dhammakaya) more conservative in this regard than the average Thai Buddhist?
As far as I know the Buddha does not define "under the protection of thier parents" but a commentary does. as stated earlier
In the case where the father is gone, or the mother provides support such as food and clothing, the mother guards [her] thinking "I will give [her] to a good family when she comes of age." This is called "protected by the mother". By the same means "protected by the father", etc., should be understood.
This is a commentary though, not a direct quote from the Pali canon, but probably correct. Since the commentary says "provides support such as food and clothing" I would argue that the 21 living by herself doesn't count. although others will disagree with my interpretation. From my understanding you should apply the rule in the shoes of the guardian to figure it out. Would you like your daughter to be having sex behind your back when shes 16 and living with you? Probably not so it would count. In the event that she moves out and you no longer care, i would say that your daughter is no longer "under your protection".


Dhammakaya does not interpret the rule more conservatively than any other Thai tradition. Although it sometimes seems like it at least for WPD. The reason is because WPD in particular places special emphasis on good and bad kamma in its teachings than most temples, so it seems like they take it more seroiusly on average. Although they take upholding precepts more seriously than most, I haven't seen any differences in interpretation of what constitutes breaking precepts such as the the third precept than any other Theravada tradition. I dont know about any other unique traditions and how they interpret such rules.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:59 pm

2600htz wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:31 pm
Hello:

In DN-27, the origin of the world, the Buddha gives an account on how the first human beings begin to have sex. At that time, any kind of sex was considered immoral, even by normal people, and beings who had sex weren’t allowed to enter a village or town for one or two months.

This sounds interesting, I think i remember reading something like this, but it was a summary, not the direct passage. would you happen to have the original passage available?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

2600htz
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by 2600htz » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:03 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:59 pm
2600htz wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:31 pm
Hello:

In DN-27, the origin of the world, the Buddha gives an account on how the first human beings begin to have sex. At that time, any kind of sex was considered immoral, even by normal people, and beings who had sex weren’t allowed to enter a village or town for one or two months.

This sounds interesting, I think i remember reading something like this, but it was a summary, not the direct passage. would you happen to have the original passage available?
Hello TRobinson465 :

https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato
.......

7. Gender Appears
But so long as they ate that ripe untilled rice, their bodies became more solid and they diverged in appearance. And female characteristics appeared on women, while male characteristics appeared on men. Women spent too much time gazing at men, and men at women. They became lustful, and their bodies burned with fever. Due to this fever they had sex with each other.

Those who saw them having sex pelted them with dirt, ashes, or cowdung, saying: ‘Get lost, filth! Get lost, filth! How on earth can one being do that to another?’ And even today people in some countries, when a bride is carried off, pelt her with dirt, ashes, or cowdung. They’re just remembering an ancient traditional saying, but they don’t understand what it means.

8. Sexual Intercourse
What was reckoned as immoral at that time, these days is reckoned as moral. The beings who had sex together weren’t allowed to enter a village or town for one or two months. Ever since they excessively threw themselves into immorality, they started to make buildings to hide their immoral deeds. Then one of those beings of idle disposition thought: ‘Hey now, why should I be bothered to gather rice in the evening for supper, and in the morning for breakfast? Why don’t I gather rice for supper and breakfast all at once?’

So that’s what he did. Then one of the other beings approached that being and said: ‘Come, good being, we shall go to gather rice.’ ‘There’s no need, good being! I gathered rice for supper and breakfast all at once.’ So that being, following their example, gathered rice for two days all at once, thinking: ‘This seems fine.’

Then one of the other beings approached that being and said: ‘Come, good being, we shall go to gather rice.’ ‘There’s no need, good being! I gathered rice for two days all at once.’ So that being, following their example, gathered rice for four days all at once, thinking: ‘This seems fine.’

Then one of the other beings approached that being and said: ‘Come, good being, we shall go to gather rice.’ ‘There’s no need, good being! I gathered rice for four days all at once.’ So that being, following their example, gathered rice for eight days all at once, thinking: ‘This seems fine.’

But when they started to store up rice to eat, the rice grains became wrapped in powder and husk, it didn’t grow back after reaping, the cutting showed, and the rice stood in clumps.

....
Regards.

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:39 am

2600htz wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:03 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:59 pm
2600htz wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:31 pm
Hello:

In DN-27, the origin of the world, the Buddha gives an account on how the first human beings begin to have sex. At that time, any kind of sex was considered immoral, even by normal people, and beings who had sex weren’t allowed to enter a village or town for one or two months.

This sounds interesting, I think i remember reading something like this, but it was a summary, not the direct passage. would you happen to have the original passage available?
Hello TRobinson465 :

https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato
.......

7. Gender Appears
But so long as they ate that ripe untilled rice, their bodies became more solid and they diverged in appearance. And female characteristics appeared on women, while male characteristics appeared on men. Women spent too much time gazing at men, and men at women. They became lustful, and their bodies burned with fever. Due to this fever they had sex with each other.

Those who saw them having sex pelted them with dirt, ashes, or cowdung, saying: ‘Get lost, filth! Get lost, filth! How on earth can one being do that to another?’ And even today people in some countries, when a bride is carried off, pelt her with dirt, ashes, or cowdung. They’re just remembering an ancient traditional saying, but they don’t understand what it means.

8. Sexual Intercourse
What was reckoned as immoral at that time, these days is reckoned as moral. The beings who had sex together weren’t allowed to enter a village or town for one or two months. Ever since they excessively threw themselves into immorality, they started to make buildings to hide their immoral deeds. Then one of those beings of idle disposition thought: ‘Hey now, why should I be bothered to gather rice in the evening for supper, and in the morning for breakfast? Why don’t I gather rice for supper and breakfast all at once?’

So that’s what he did. Then one of the other beings approached that being and said: ‘Come, good being, we shall go to gather rice.’ ‘There’s no need, good being! I gathered rice for supper and breakfast all at once.’ So that being, following their example, gathered rice for two days all at once, thinking: ‘This seems fine.’

Then one of the other beings approached that being and said: ‘Come, good being, we shall go to gather rice.’ ‘There’s no need, good being! I gathered rice for two days all at once.’ So that being, following their example, gathered rice for four days all at once, thinking: ‘This seems fine.’

Then one of the other beings approached that being and said: ‘Come, good being, we shall go to gather rice.’ ‘There’s no need, good being! I gathered rice for four days all at once.’ So that being, following their example, gathered rice for eight days all at once, thinking: ‘This seems fine.’

But when they started to store up rice to eat, the rice grains became wrapped in powder and husk, it didn’t grow back after reaping, the cutting showed, and the rice stood in clumps.

....
Regards.

Exactly what i was looking for!!! Thank you very much! :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

chownah
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by chownah » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:18 pm

A cautionary note on sex before marriage:
Shirelles - Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow

chownah

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manas
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by manas » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:56 pm

Would folks agree, that the sum and substance of the Buddha's advice might be something like: don't have sex with anyone who is already with someone else, or is vulnerable and cannot give free and informed consent (such as underage persons), or where the laws of the Land you happen to reside in prohibit it? Since we are in the 21st Century now, I think common sense and the principle of 'do no harm' can inform our decisions, rather than merely poring over possible interpretations of an ancient text from another time and culture, even if it is attributed to the wisest person who ever lived.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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