Sex before marriage

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Bundokji
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:05 am Yes, I think sex is an issue which tends to evade a comprehensive intellectual understanding. Without getting too Freudian about it, there is a tendency for our rationalisations and theories about it to be coloured by our hormones and unresolved issues in a way that is quite unique. As Camille Paglia said, it's the place where nature and culture intersect, so we need to be well-informed about both.

I don't think that marriage is a solution to the "problem of lust". I think it is worth being clear with ourselves why we think that sexual desire is a problem at all - especially within the context of Buddhism. On the one hand, the wariness might stem from the damage to others that unrestrained sexual activity leaves in its wake; a kind of consequentialist ethic which would point to the betrayals, loss of confidence, feelings of being used, trashed reputations, etc. which can occur. DooDoot makes this point very clearly above. Our sexual expressions harm other people because we are using them.

On the other hand, the wariness might focus on the damage to ourselves which occurs when we follow our impulses and become preoccupied with a source of pleasure. The kammic damage here is the more immediately obvious one of being trapped in samsara, being unable to pull oneself out of the cycle of excitement, discharge, and ennui. This applies to our sexual fantasies and also masturbation. Our sexual expressions harm us, because those expressions are using us.

Depending on which of these two aspects of sexual desire we are concerned with, there might be answers to the question of whether marital sex is in any sense morally superior.
You raised a lot of important issues, none if them is easy to answer.

I, as an unenlightened human, almost always act with mixed intentions. The question you raised "why sexual desire is a problem at all" is not too different from the question "why do we want to get enlightened" in the sense that both questions can be used to reveal unpleasant truths about us.

While hedonism and enlightenment are perceived as the opposite of each other, both seem to be an outcome/reaction to living in impermanent world. I don't think hedonism can be truthfully and easily dismissed by an unenlightened beings. If sensuality is what i want, then why one partner? my natural tendency is wanting more.

Why marriage is better than prostitution for instance? at least, in prostitution, using each other is the obvious (hence no false expectations is built on it), while in marriage, much of this is disguised under shiny slogans such as love and romance ...etc.

If you extend the argument of harm and using each other, is not our existence and livelihood depend on both? why sex is different?

There are no clear intellectual answers.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:47 am I don't think hedonism can be truthfully and easily dismissed by an unenlightened beings. If sensuality is what i want, then why one partner? my natural tendency is wanting more.

Why marriage is better than prostitution for instance? at least, in prostitution, using each other is the obvious (hence no false expectations is built on it), while in marriage, much of this is disguised under shiny slogans such as love and romance ...etc.

If you extend the argument of harm and using each other, is not our existence and livelihood depend on both? why sex is different?

There are no clear intellectual answers.
Yes, I agree that this is not something that can be decided by intellectual debate. However, there might be some pointers to more wholesome behaviour, based on our understanding of the Buddha's teachings.

If we give in to sensuality, then it might nevertheless be a good idea to put some limits on the extent of that sexuality. For example, if it is addiction to the pleasure that I am concerned about, I might want to limit that pleasure to just one person who also fulfills other roles for me. This would be a form of self-denial (i.e. forgoing the pleasures of unrestrained promiscuity) akin to satisfying one's gustatory appetite with one portion of food, rather than eating one's way through the fridge. Conversely, if it is damage to other sentient beings that I am concerned with, then I might think that the damage is alleviated or even eradicated by having sex only with someone I know very well. They are less likely to lie about their motivation; less likely to involve us in activity which they later regret. If one's spouse asks for sex, one is much more likely to know that they are not just asking for affirmation, status, a cuddle, comfort, or revenge upon a cheating partner.

Similarly, I think there are few false expectations and shiny slogans involved in an actual marriage (as opposed to an outsider's view of marriage). The reality of living with someone and knowing them tends to put paid to that. And again, one is more likely to know that one's spouse is a free agent, and not constrained by economic circumstance, pimps, addiction, or mental illness.

Certainly, all existence depends on feeding, and this frequently harms others. (Ajahn Thanissaro is particularly good on this "feeding" aspect). And certainly, sex is a good example of this. A case might be made for less harm being done when two people are in agreement as to what they are doing, rather than relying on lust-fuelled guesswork; and that marriage largely eliminates the guesswork without condemning the lust.
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Gwi
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Gwi »

Kāmesumicchācārå = wrong conduct in sensual pleasures


concubinage (harlotry) = violate
Prostitutes (harlotry) = violate

Adultery = violate (big problem)
Rape (ravisment) = violate (big problem)

Concubinage n prostitutes = FORNICATION = VIOLATE



The answer, it is a violation
of the third precept (samenleven).




Read Dhammapadå 24,
Kumbhaghosakå' story:

The Buddhå said: "... However, the act of
stealing and crime others
(the third precept in the story [samenleven])
will only bring DUKKHÅ.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
sphairos
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Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Sex before marriage

Post by sphairos »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:31 pm Kāmesumicchācārå = wrong conduct in sensual pleasures


concubinage (harlotry) = violate
Prostitutes (harlotry) = violate

Adultery = violate (big problem)
Rape (ravisment) = violate (big problem)

Concubinage n prostitutes = FORNICATION = VIOLATE



The answer, it is a violation
of the third precept (samenleven).




Read Dhammapadå 24,
Kumbhaghosakå' story:

The Buddhå said: "... However, the act of
stealing and crime others
(the third precept in the story [samenleven])
will only bring DUKKHÅ.
Hi, Gwi.

I had sex before marriage. And I am still not married. What should I do now?
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot »

sphairos wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:30 pm I had sex before marriage. And I am still not married. What should I do now?
Are you a pandaka? If so, pandaka sex has no relevance to Dhamma.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Gwi
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Gwi »

sphairos wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:30 pm
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:31 pm Kāmesumicchācārå = wrong conduct in sensual pleasures


concubinage (harlotry) = violate
Prostitutes (harlotry) = violate

Adultery = violate (big problem)
Rape (ravisment) = violate (big problem)

Concubinage n prostitutes = FORNICATION = VIOLATE



The answer, it is a violation
of the third precept (samenleven).




Read Dhammapadå 24,
Kumbhaghosakå' story:

The Buddhå said: "... However, the act of
stealing and crime others
(the third precept in the story [samenleven])
will only bring DUKKHÅ.
Hi, Gwi.

I had sex before marriage. And I am still not married. What should I do now?

If you are committed to your partner,
You are husband and wife.
However, the beginning was
that you broke the precepts.



now it is not
(not breaking the precepts
[only breaking at the beginning])
Because you have become
husband and wife (unmarried bond).
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
sphairos
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Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Sex before marriage

Post by sphairos »

Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:06 am
sphairos wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:30 pm
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:31 pm Kāmesumicchācārå = wrong conduct in sensual pleasures


concubinage (harlotry) = violate
Prostitutes (harlotry) = violate

Adultery = violate (big problem)
Rape (ravisment) = violate (big problem)

Concubinage n prostitutes = FORNICATION = VIOLATE



The answer, it is a violation
of the third precept (samenleven).

Read Dhammapadå 24,
Kumbhaghosakå' story:

The Buddhå said: "... However, the act of
stealing and crime others
(the third precept in the story [samenleven])
will only bring DUKKHÅ.
Hi, Gwi.

I had sex before marriage. And I am still not married. What should I do now?

If you are committed to your partner,
You are husband and wife.
However, the beginning was
that you broke the precepts.

now it is not
(not breaking the precepts
[only breaking at the beginning])
Because you have become
husband and wife (unmarried bond).
Gwi, but I have new partners every week, what should I do now ?
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Gwi
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Location: Indonesia

Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Gwi »

sphairos wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:11 pm
Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:06 am
sphairos wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:30 pm

Hi, Gwi.

I had sex before marriage. And I am still not married. What should I do now?

If you are committed to your partner,
You are husband and wife.
However, the beginning was
that you broke the precepts.

now it is not
(not breaking the precepts
[only breaking at the beginning])
Because you have become
husband and wife (unmarried bond).
Gwi, but I have new partners every week, what should I do now ?



That means you broke the precepts :computerproblem:
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Inedible
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Location: Iowa City

Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Inedible »

There is nothing mysterious about premarital sex. Postmarital sex is another matter entirely.
sphairos
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Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Sex before marriage

Post by sphairos »

Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:40 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:11 pm
Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:06 am


If you are committed to your partner,
You are husband and wife.
However, the beginning was
that you broke the precepts.

now it is not
(not breaking the precepts
[only breaking at the beginning])
Because you have become
husband and wife (unmarried bond).
Gwi, but I have new partners every week, what should I do now ?

That means you broke the precepts :computerproblem:
But I am faithful to all of them! We are free people in a free world having free sex -- what is wrong with that?

And what should I do now if I "broke the precepts"?
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Gwi
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Location: Indonesia

Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Gwi »

sphairos wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:00 pm
Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:40 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:11 pm

Gwi, but I have new partners every week, what should I do now ?

That means you broke the precepts :computerproblem:
But I am faithful to all of them! We are free people in a free world having free sex -- what is wrong with that?

And what should I do now if I "broke the precepts"?


you will accumulate bad kammå.
For example, being born often broken up,
having children who are prostitutes,
being separated from those you love,
having difficulty controlling lust,
Having parents or siblings who are prostitutes.

Read Khuddakapāṭha Aṭṭhakathā,
what are the consequences
Of breaking the third precept or
what are the blessings of avoiding it.



DN 31
"Gambling, prostitution and drunkenness too,
Dancing, singing, sleeping during the day,
Wandering around at the wrong time, hanging out with
bad friends,
And stinginess destroys a person."
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
sphairos
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Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:37 am
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Sex before marriage

Post by sphairos »

Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:20 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:00 pm
Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:40 pm


That means you broke the precepts :computerproblem:
But I am faithful to all of them! We are free people in a free world having free sex -- what is wrong with that?

And what should I do now if I "broke the precepts"?


you will accumulate bad kammå.
For example, being born often broken up,
having children who are prostitutes,
being separated from those you love,
having difficulty controlling lust,
Having parents or siblings who are prostitutes.

Read Khuddakapāṭha Aṭṭhakathā,
what are the consequences
Of breaking the third precept or
what are the blessings of avoiding it.



DN 31
"Gambling, prostitution and drunkenness too,
Dancing, singing, sleeping during the day,
Wandering around at the wrong time, hanging out with
bad friends,
And stinginess destroys a person."
But in the Mahākammavibhaṅga-sutta (MN 136) it is said that righteous people can go to hell, and evil ones can be reborn in heaven.

Nobody knows which kamma you have accumulated. So how do I know that I m going to have bad consequences?
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Gwi
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Location: Indonesia

Re: Sex before marriage

Post by Gwi »

Sallekha Suttank (MN 8):

“Cundå, just like all conditions are not
Beneficial pointing downwards and all
conditions useful pointing up."



even though you are born in heaven,
you have a lot of bad kammå,
which will surely have results.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot »

sphairos wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:25 pm But in the Mahākammavibhaṅga-sutta (MN 136) it is said that righteous people can go to hell, and evil ones can be reborn in heaven.

Nobody knows which kamma you have accumulated. So how do I know that I m going to have bad consequences?
Irrelevant. What is relevant is the sexual misconduct will inevitably lead to hell.
16. (ii) "Now there is the person who has killed living beings here... misconducts himself in sexual desires... speaks falsehood... has had wrong view. And on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. But (perhaps) the good kamma producing his happiness was done by him earlier, or the good kamma producing his happiness was done by him later, or right view was undertaken and completed by him at the time of his death. And that was why, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappeared in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. But since he misconducts himself in sexual desires... speaks falsehood... has had wrong view here... he will feel the result of that here and now :shock: , or in his next rebirth :o , or in some subsequent existence :weep: :( .

MN 136
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:30 pm you have a lot of bad kammå,
which will surely have results.
:reading:
Speaker:
The city was called Sāvatthi
on the slope of the Himālaya.
There once lived two princes
they were the king's sons.

Intoxicated by what is lovely
they enjoyed the senses of lust.
Full of greed for the present good
she didn't care about the future.

As humanity they left
when another world opened up for them,
you couldn't see them, but they screamed
because they once did evil work.

Petas:
Although there was plenty
had many things to give,
we did not care for our salvation,
not even for the smallest of luck.

What bad work it was
that when we died at court,
have appeared in the hungry ghost kingdom,
tormented by thirst and hunger?

Buddha:
Who lived here in the gentleman's class,
will not be master here again.
Whether high or low here
beings are hungry, thirsty.

Whoever recognized this misery
the rush of domination brings about
he overcomes the intoxication of domination,
the man who goes to the heavenly world.
If the body is put down here,
the way up to heaven rises.

Stories of Hungry Ghosts
:shock:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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