Sex before marriage

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
KiwiNFLFan
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Sex before marriage

Post by KiwiNFLFan » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:56 am

My Thai friend and I were talking tonight, and he said that a couple living together before marriage is sexual misconduct. He said that for a couple who are not married to have sex, the consent of the parents must be obtained.

How much of this is Buddhist teaching and how much of it is Thai culture? I know that the scriptures mention that having sex with someone under the protection of their parents is sexual misconduct, but how is that applicable to the 21st century (especially in the West)? Would a 25 year old woman who left home at 18 and lives on her own considered to be under the authority of her parents? This sort of situation didn't exist in India 2,500 years ago. Even in modern India, marriages are often arranged by parents and dating is frowned upon.

Do Western men who date/marry Thai women typically ask the woman's parents for permission before engaging in sex? And would the parents usually give it?

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:14 am

KiwiNFLFan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:56 am
Do Western men who date/marry Thai women typically ask the woman's parents for permission before engaging in sex? And would the parents usually give it?
Obviously, not every Thai family follows Buddhism in a serious manner.

A sutta is below:
In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
A commentary is below:
Māturakkhitātiādīsu yaṃ pitari naṭṭhe vā mate vā ghāsacchādanādīhi paṭijaggamānā, vayapattaṃ kulaghare dassāmīti mātā rakkhati, ayaṃ māturakkhitā nāma. Etenupāyena piturakkhitādayopi veditabbā. Sabhāgakulāni pana kucchigatesupi gabbhesu katikaṃ karonti – ‘‘sace mayhaṃ putto hoti, tuyhaṃ dhītā, aññattha gantuṃ na labhissati, mayhaṃ puttasseva hotū’’ti. Evaṃ gabbhepi pariggahitā sassāmikā nāma. ‘‘Yo itthannāmaṃ itthiṃ gacchati, tassa ettako daṇḍo’’ti evaṃ gāmaṃ vā gehaṃ vā vīthiṃ vā uddissa ṭhapitadaṇḍā, pana saparidaṇḍānāma. Antamaso mālāguṇaparikkhittāpīti yā sabbantimena paricchedena, ‘‘esā me bhariyā bhavissatī’’ti saññāya tassā upari kenaci mālāguṇaṃ khipantena mālāguṇamattenāpi parikkhittā hoti.

Rough translation:

In the case where the father is gone, or the mother provides support such as food and clothing, the mother guards [her] thinking "I will give [her] to a good family when she comes of age." This is called "protected by the mother". By the same means "protected by the father", etc., should be understood.

When families come together and, even when the fetuses have just reached the womb, make an agreement - "If I have a son and you a daughter, let there be no getting to go to another; let her be for my son." Even in the case of a fetus that is protected thus, it is called "having a husband".

"Whoever goes to a woman of such and such a name, such a penalty is for him." Thus, a penalty is established by a village or a house, or a street; this is called "as entail a penalty."

"Even to the extent of those who are garlanded" - to the last extreme of all, with the perception that "This woman will be my wife", by tossing some garland over her head, there is "those that are garlanded"
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:31 am

KiwiNFLFan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:56 am
My Thai friend and I were talking tonight, and he said that a couple living together before marriage is sexual misconduct. He said that for a couple who are not married to have sex, the consent of the parents must be obtained.

How much of this is Buddhist teaching and how much of it is Thai culture? I know that the scriptures mention that having sex with someone under the protection of their parents is sexual misconduct, but how is that applicable to the 21st century (especially in the West)? Would a 25 year old woman who left home at 18 and lives on her own considered to be under the authority of her parents? This sort of situation didn't exist in India 2,500 years ago. Even in modern India, marriages are often arranged by parents and dating is frowned upon.

Do Western men who date/marry Thai women typically ask the woman's parents for permission before engaging in sex? And would the parents usually give it?
From my understanding sex before marriage isn't breaking the rule per se, but it can. There doesn't appear to be any sutta stating that it flat out breaks it. I would say it is fine even if you aren't married so long as your not breaking any of the conditions the Buddha said breaks it, ie. married to somebody else, in a relationships with somebody else, chaste lifestyle (monk/nun), and of course under a guardians protection. I would say unmarried and living on your own makes you not under a guardians protection and thus it is okay.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:45 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:31 am
From my understanding sex before marriage isn't breaking the rule per se, but it can. There doesn't appear to be any sutta stating that it flat out breaks it.
It seems like my previous post was not considered.
Nakula's father said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since Nakula's mother as a young girl was brought to me [to be my wife] when I was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to her even in mind, much less in body.

And Nakula's mother said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since I as a young girl was brought to Nakula's father [to be his wife] when he was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to him even in mind, much less in body.

AN 4.55
:alien:
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:31 am
... of course under a guardians protection.
Parents & family were said to be protectors of unmarried children (until the children were married).
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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_anicca_
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by _anicca_ » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am

Thai culture perverts Buddhism. Any culture does.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:45 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:31 am
From my understanding sex before marriage isn't breaking the rule per se, but it can. There doesn't appear to be any sutta stating that it flat out breaks it.
It seems like my previous post was not considered.
I read it, but I think those things you highlighted tend to be more of an ancient/Indian cultural thing. Since in western society arranging a marriage and whatnot is not customary, there's not really anything to base cases of when the mother does not arrange such a marriage. In addition, while that is indeed mentioned in the Singolovada Sutta that does'nt necessarily mean it breaks the third precept. The in the Singolovada Sutta the Buddha also advises against roaming the night at unseemly hours and frequenting shows, neither of which technically break any precept.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:01 am

I feel like if sex before marriage counts as sexual misconduct, the Buddha would just say so instead of giving a list of things that counts as sexual misconduct. On top of that, how do you define marriage? Marriage is very much an artificial construct. There could be some fringe society out there with no formal marriage tradition. Or if the government is really discriminatory and doenst give marriage licenses to certain groups or something (same-sex, interracial, inter-caste etc)
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:03 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am
I read it, but I think those things you highlighted tend to be more of an ancient/Indian cultural thing.
They are quotes from the suttas. If they were a "cultural thing" when wouldn't the precept also be a "cultural thing"?
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am
Since in western society arranging a marriage and whatnot is not customary, there's not really anything to base cases of when the mother does not arrange such a marriage.
Irrelevant. In current Western society,drinking alcohol is legal but this does not change the precept on alcohol.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am
In addition, while that is indeed mentioned in the Singolovada Sutta that does'nt necessarily mean it breaks the third precept.
The precept refers to "protected by family". The Singolovada Sutta is about the meaning of this.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am
The in the Singolovada Sutta the Buddha also advises against roaming the night at unseemly hours and frequenting shows, neither of which technically break any precept.
Irrelevant. The precept refers to "protected by family". The Singolovada Sutta is about the meaning of this.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:01 am
I feel like if sex before marriage counts as sexual misconduct, the Buddha would just say so instead of giving a list of things that counts as sexual misconduct.
The Buddha did. The Buddha said children are protected by family until a suitable marriage is arranged.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:01 am
On top of that, how do you define marriage? Marriage is very much an artificial construct.
Irrelevant. The suttas refer to marriage.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:01 am
There could be some fringe society out there with no formal marriage tradition.
This fringe society would be unrelated to Buddhist society.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:01 am
Or if the government is really discriminatory and doenst give marriage licenses to certain groups or something (same-sex, interracial, inter-caste etc)
Irrelevant.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:03 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am
I read it, but I think those things you highlighted tend to be more of an ancient/Indian cultural thing.
They are quotes from the suttas. If they were a "cultural thing" when wouldn't the precept also be a "cultural thing"?
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am
Since in western society arranging a marriage and whatnot is not customary, there's not really anything to base cases of when the mother does not arrange such a marriage.
Irrelevant. In Western society,drinking alcohol is legal but this does not change the precept on alcohol.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am
In addition, while that is indeed mentioned in the Singolovada Sutta that does'nt necessarily mean it breaks the third precept.
The precept refers to "protected by family". The Singolovada Sutta is about the meaning of this.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 am
The in the Singolovada Sutta the Buddha also advises against roaming the night at unseemly hours and frequenting shows, neither of which technically break any precept.
Irrelevant. The precept refers to "protected by family". The Singolovada Sutta is about the meaning of this.
In no way could anyone possibly argue that just because something is legal it doesn't break a precept. so the alcohol statement is ridiculous. My argument is in ancient indian culture, because of its rigidness, there is not really a way to not be protected by the family while not being married. But in modern western culture there is. On top of that, I would argue that the verses you highlighted from the Singolovada Sutta don't clearly support this as the definition of "protected by family", if a parents doesn't "restrain them from evil" are they not a real parent to their child? And what about a couple that lives as married but cannot be recognized as married by the state they live in? Granted this isn't an issue in much of the world before but 100 years ago it was illegal to marry somebody of a different race in parts of the world. I wouldnt say that one technicality would break it.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:18 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
In no way could anyone possibly argue that just because something is legal it doesn't break a precept. so the alcohol statement is ridiculous.
So you have agreed with me above.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
My argument is in ancient indian culture, because of its rigidness
Your argument is your own opinion and appears not related to anything found in the Pali suttas.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
n top of that, I would argue that the verses you highlighted from the Singolovada Sutta don't clearly support this as the definition of "protected by family".
But they do; as was also highlighted in the Buddhist commentary I provided.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
And what about a couple that lives as married but cannot be recognized as married by the state they live in?
Irrelevant.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
Granted this isn't an issue in much of the world before but 100 years ago it was illegal to marry somebody of a different race in parts of the world. I wouldnt say that one technicality would break it.
Unrelated to Buddhism. As I said with the alcohol analogy - other laws, cultures, societies, etc, don't change the Buddhist teachings.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:24 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:18 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
In no way could anyone possibly argue that just because something is legal it doesn't break a precept. so the alcohol statement is ridiculous.
So you have agreed with me above.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
My argument is in ancient indian culture, because of its rigidness
Your argument is your own opinion and appears not related to anything found in the Pali suttas.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
n top of that, I would argue that the verses you highlighted from the Singolovada Sutta don't clearly support this as the definition of "protected by family".
But they do; as was also highlighted in the Buddhist commentary I provided.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
And what about a couple that lives as married but cannot be recognized as married by the state they live in?
Irrelevant.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:13 am
Granted this isn't an issue in much of the world before but 100 years ago it was illegal to marry somebody of a different race in parts of the world. I wouldnt say that one technicality would break it.
Unrelated to Buddhism. As I said with the alcohol analogy - other laws, cultures, societies, etc, don't change the Buddhist teachings.
Im agreeing with you on the alcohol thing because that not the meaning of what i said. and
"..the mother guards [her] thinking "I will give [her] to a good family when she comes of age."


means protected by the mother. yes. but if the mother doesn't think that (like when her child just moves out to live on thier own), that would mean she is no longer protected. And if you were 25 years old and for some reason all of your former guardians died, you would not be protected by anybody, thus you dont have to be married to not be protected anymore.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:32 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:24 am
means protected by the mother. yes. but if the mother doesn't think that (like when her child just moves out to live on thier own), that would mean she is no longer protected.
The above would appear to mean the mother is not practising the Pali teachings.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:24 am
And if you were 25 years old and for some reason all of your former guardians died, you would not be protected by anybody, thus you dont have to be married to not be protected anymore.
Irrelevant. Does not change the purpose of the teachings.

The impression is you view the relevant teachings as mere "rules" rather than something related to minimizing suffering.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:34 am

In the case where the father is gone, or the mother provides support such as food and clothing, the mother guards [her] thinking "I will give [her] to a good family when she comes of age."
There's also this part which i have highlighted.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Location: United States

Re: Sex before marriage

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:35 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:32 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:24 am
means protected by the mother. yes. but if the mother doesn't think that (like when her child just moves out to live on thier own), that would mean she is no longer protected.
The above would appear to mean the mother is not practising the Pali teachings.
Yes, and most people don't.....
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex before marriage

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:35 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:34 am
There's also this part which i have highlighted.
The impression is you view the relevant teachings as mere "rules" rather than something (dhamma) related to minimizing suffering.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:35 am
Yes, and most people don't.....
Unrelated to Buddhism. The topic is about Buddhism rather than is about what most people believe & do.

:focus:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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