Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:27 am

perhaps, good question
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:55 am

Hi Steve.
There are a couple of angles one can look at this from within the texts so I will deal with them.
Acording to the wording of the precept and other textual explanations of the precept the situation is not a breach even without her permission. Although if the situation was reversed it would be a breach of the precept for her technically according to sutta explanations.

As the textual explanations deal and explain things from a male perspective so long as the woman he had intercourse with did not fall into a protected status (basically anywas who isn't single, of legal age, or in custody) he is able to sleep with. personally I think the rexerse is also true for women but the texts do not specifically support this idea in any way.

There are stories in the texts of wives arranging for cortesans to dealwith their household duties (including sexual needs of their spouse) while they observe the 8 precepts for a while, and this can be assumed to be similar enough to this situation you describe to demonstrate an exception here acording to the applicability the vinaya has when new situations arise.

There are, in this situation, other things to consider. regardless of permission and intelectual understanding of the situation, this can lead to jealousy and upset. So applying the vinaya standard for new situations for precepts to the lay precepts (which I will assume this case is in a monogomous society relationship understanding) it is still not a breach of the precepts as the permission to open the relationship up has been given thus general current social standards do not apply in considering the precepts.

I would caution though that this situation can become out of hand with emotional dificulties.

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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:33 am

steve19800 wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:23 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:47 am
being prohibited by law.
I find this term is tricky, what does women who are "protected by law" mean?

If the local laws prohibiting your sexual behavior, for example, no sexual intercourse outside marriage but you do it, does it mean you have sexual intercourse with those who are "protected by law" therefore breaking the third precept?
I take it to mean in accordance with the laws of the land. so you make a good point with your question as adultary isn't necessarily illegal, i.e. the state wont prosecute seeking justice, but can be a legal justification for divorce... which I think most of the west hold that stance of legal justification and prosecutable in civil rather than criminal court without state sponsorship (it wont be a state funded legal case) the agreement of the spouse is the key factor here depending on the legal stance a country has.
In writing this I have read the wiki on adultery and particularly the part on punishments but have left my response above unedited in light of the information as I dont think it differs to abruptly from the information i learnt from reading that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery# ... constructs

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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by pilgrim » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:24 am

With or without consent of one's wife, sex outside marriage does not break the precepts as long as the sexual partner is not in the list of prohibited persons. That does not necessarily mean it is a skillful act. One can keep the 5 precepts yet live a very unskillful life. A person who is locked away in a jail cell in solitary confinement will not break the precepts. A drug pusher does not have a Right Livelihood but if he does not consume his own products he too does not break the precepts.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by JamesTheGiant » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:10 am

What a totally bizarre topic.
There is absolutely no reason a husband has to have sex with another woman. Just use your hand! Far better to masturbate often, than cause all sorts of emotional entanglements and trouble.
How absurd. :shrug:

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:49 am

pilgrim wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:24 am
With or without consent of one's wife, sex outside marriage does not break the precepts as long as the sexual partner is not in the list of prohibited persons. That does not necessarily mean it is a skillful act. One can keep the 5 precepts yet live a very unskillful life. A person who is locked away in a jail cell in solitary confinement will not break the precepts. A drug pusher does not have a Right Livelihood but if he does not consume his own products he too does not break the precepts.
Right. There's a legalistic side to the question, and a moral side. The legal side is satisfied by simple adherence or non-adherence to the precepts as stated. The moral side is much more subtle and complex, and would necessarily involve situation-specific adjustment.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:15 pm

there are arranged marriages, love-less marriages, open relationships, not to mention people getting off on seeing their partner with others.
just saying...
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Intro to General Semantics
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"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:06 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:15 pm
there are arranged marriages, love-less marriages, open relationships, not to mention people getting off on seeing their partner with others.
just saying...
Maybe. But the ways of the world are not exactly the ways of Dhamma. AN 4.55. AN 4.53

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:16 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:15 pm
there are arranged marriages, love-less marriages, open relationships, not to mention people getting off on seeing their partner with others.
just saying...
Maybe.
Oh i am pretty sure this is a fact.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:19 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:16 pm
Oh i am pretty sure this is a fact.
I'm pretty sure what I wrote is also fact, namely, the ways of Dhamma are not the same as the ways of the world (Mara).

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:19 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:16 pm
Oh i am pretty sure this is a fact.
I'm pretty sure what I wrote is also fact, namely, the ways of Dhamma are not the same as the ways of the world (Mara).
lay people (what this thread is about) are part of the world, and this issue is relevant to a precept that deals with how a layperson should act in the world for people who are in a similare situation.

This thread isn't disrespecting anyone as it stems from the OP where the wife is fully aware and has potentially sugested it.

:focus:
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:56 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
lay people (what this thread is about) are part of the world...
The term "the world" has different meanings. For example, just because sexual promiscuity, pedophilia or lying is practised by "the world" does not mean lay Buddhists should practise promiscuity, pedophilia or lying.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
this issue is relevant to a precept that deals with how a layperson should act in the world for people who are in a similare situation.
The man might be stuck with this woman due to actions he performed in a past life. Its sounds like you don't believe in kamma-vipaka; which MN 117 says is wrong view in Buddhism. Instead of practising the Dhamma of compassion (karuna); it seems the defilement of lust (raga) that leads to rebirth in animal hungry ghost & hell realms is being promoted here.
Bhikkhus, a god, a human or any other good state would not be evident from actions born of greed (lust), hate and delusion. Yet, bhikkhus, from actions born of greed (lust), hate and delusion a hellish being, an animal birth a ghostly birth or some other bad state would be evident.

AN 6.39

Garrib
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Garrib » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:19 am

It just sounds like something to be avoided.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:35 am

Garrib wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:19 am
It just sounds like something to be avoided.
:goodpost:
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:30 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:56 am
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
lay people (what this thread is about) are part of the world...
The term "the world" has different meanings. For example, just because sexual promiscuity, pedophilia or lying is practised by "the world" does not mean lay Buddhists should practise promiscuity, pedophilia or lying.
no, however that argument doesn't negate the situation being put forward. One where the conversation could easily have been brought up by the wife.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
this issue is relevant to a precept that deals with how a layperson should act in the world for people who are in a similare situation.
The man might be stuck with this woman due to actions he performed in a past life. Its sounds like you don't believe in kamma-vipaka; which MN 117 says is wrong view in Buddhism. Instead of practising the Dhamma of compassion (karuna); it seems the defilement of lust (raga) that leads to rebirth in animal hungry ghost & hell realms is being promoted here.
not at all. there could be a situation where the wife has been left infertile and the situation arose as a means to carry on the husbands bloodline and for them both to stay together?

you speak of compassion, yet show none for both sides eaqually? there are two people here and both have needs, wants and desires. the Buddha never said all could or should follow the renunciate life.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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