Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Cittasanto
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:01 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:54 pm
Cittasanto wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:30 pm
no, however that argument doesn't negate the situation being put forward. One where the conversation could easily have been brought up by the wife.
This appears to still not change the lack of consideration about who & what will this other woman be and the consequences upon her. You seem to have the view that there is a pool of women out there for exploitation or use by men who need to satisfy random male sexual lusts. I continue to discern a lack of empathy for women here & merely a macho male orientated, even pornographic, outlook of male self-cherishing. For example, in the Buddha's time, I imagine only a wealthy man could consider such an arrangement where they could buy & financially support a mistress or courtesan or sex slave.
the op does not deal with that, as the situation as presented only indicates a discussion has been had between the two. That is up to those involved to consider.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
not at all.
So like a Buddha, are you declaring here to know the workings of kamma over billions of lifetimes of billions of beings?
not in the slitest. I am only taking the situation as far as the op has gone. The Buddha could have made having multiple partners at the same time a breach of the precept for men, but didn't.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
there could be a situation where the wife has been left infertile and the situation arose as a means to carry on the husbands bloodline and for them both to stay together?
"Could be", you say, even though it appears you are not confident of the real facts of the kammic inheritence that lead to the present reincarnation? So you appear here to dismiss the doctrine of kamma & rebirth but fall back on a doctrine similar to the Protestant King Henry VIII of England who changed the laws of God so he could divorce his infertile wives (rather than behead them, as he previously did)?

Recall what happened in the Jewish Old Testament when Abraham believed the wife has been left infertile and the situation arose as a means to carry on the husbands bloodline. His wife Sarah gave Abraham her slave girl Hagi and Abraham & Hagi had sex together to bear a son (who eventually became the patriarch of the Muslims). Abraham & Sarah were proved totally wrong in their judgments of kamma & reincarnation because God himself had to tell them they were wrong; that the heir born via the slave girl Hagi was not the bloodline of the Chosen People. Even Sarah bore the heir of the Chosen People when she was 90 or 100 years old or similar age.
The situation is in the here and now, not a past life.
We are dealing with a current time situation regarding Buddhist precepts.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
you speak of compassion, yet show none for both sides equally?
Since when was compassion encouraging people to engage in mere sexual lust? Where does the Dhamma say this? Dhamma says any action motived purely by lust is unwholesome and leads to rebirth in the lower worlds. You claim to speak of compassion for both sides equally yet show none to the theoretical 3rd party, who you appear to completely sexually objectify, like in a pornographic movie, and strip the 3rd party of any emotional feeling & response when/as being the provider of sexual services to this man who is unable to accept his kammic reincarnation & inheritance.
the OP talks about biological needs (the desire to reproduce could be called that), hence the situation presented by myself above is a potential. The third party is not even being considered in the op as it is not at that stage. that would be upto the couple.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
there are two people here and both have needs, wants and desires.
Where was it ever said the wife has a "need"? Also, as I mentioned a number of times, there are more than two people here. You keep asserting there are two people in this arrangement when there is obviously at least three people.
where is the third person mentioned in the op. to my knowledge there was a discussion and finding out if it was against the precepts, as yet there is no third person.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
the Buddha never said all could or should follow the renunciate life.
The Buddha never said women should be used as mere sex objects. The Buddha condemned womanizing, sexual promiscuity & having sex with prostitutes. Therefore, returning to my original post on this topic, my original question remains unanswered, namely:
you seam to think it would not be a mutually benefiscial situation for all involved.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:03 pm

This sounds very theoretical. Who or what exactly is this "other woman"? Does this other woman have any feelings, emotions & eventually expectations when having sex with the man? Or is the "other woman" merely a series of different prostitutes? :shrug:
If you go beyond the scope of the OP it will sound very theoretical.
:focus:
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:10 pm

Actually there are statistics showing that in general top 80% of women are having sex with top 20% of men. There are also studies that would support the notion that the men who are not in the top 20% are generally perceived as "below average" by women.

With the notion of hypergamy taken into consideration it is hardly surprising that women would have to compete a lot and would have to share.

An evolutionary biologist might also mention that back in the dizay, in dem tribal communities the females were in general not part-taking in warfare and if two tribes, tribe A) and tribe B) went to war, the male population of the losing tribe would often be expected to be exterminated whilst the male population of the winning tribe would have been expected to be reduced. The winning tribe would be expected take all the women remaining and these would be expected to "learn to love" their new men and breed with them. To make matters worse it would be mentioned that women who failed to make the switch would have been killed and thus human females have been breeded for this trait of non-attachment.

So if two tribes with a population of 1000 went to war, each having roughly 550 women and the winning tribe losing 1/3 of it's male population and the losing tribe losing 1/5 women, that would leave total 300 men and 990 women. So the men remaining could kill two women each and there would still be "left over" women.

There are also in general more women than men in the world, a biologist would say that it is because conceiving and giving birth to a male demands more resources, which is basically a no-brainer as far as biology goes as boys are a little heavier. I think the probability of conceiving a female is ~53% or so on avg.

:? being human kind of sucks

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 01, 2018 1:14 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:01 pm
the op does not deal with that, as the situation as presented only indicates a discussion has been had between the two. That is up to those involved to consider.
There are obviously potentially three people involved here, rather than two, unless they discussed the following:



Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
The Buddha could have made having multiple partners at the same time a breach of the precept for men, but didn't.
The precept was given together with other Buddhist practises, such as marrying of children, particularly daughters, when they came of age (DN 31). Thus the precept refers to daughters "protected by their family". To cite the precept without reference to the other teachings about family is obviously not the totality of the Dhamma. Similar to Gotama & his followers mentioned in the suttas, most people in the Buddha's society were married as teenagers, when they became sexually mature. To quote AN 4.55:
Nakula's father said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since Nakula's mother as a young girl was brought to me [to be my wife] when I was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to her even in mind, much less in body... Nakula's mother said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since I as a young girl was brought to Nakula's father [to be his wife] when he was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to him even in mind, much less in body. We want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come.

AN 4.55
:heart:
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
We are dealing with a current time situation regarding Buddhist precepts.
My impression is you might not understand what the precepts actually are; as I just suggested.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
the OP talks about biological needs (the desire to reproduce could be called that), hence the situation presented by myself above is a potential. The third party is not even being considered in the op as it is not at that stage. that would be upto the couple.
The OP is obviously referring to having male orgasms but it is you that seeks to create a wholesome veneer by mentioning reproduction. If the man wants to reproduce, he can hire a surrogate mother in a formal businesslike arrangement.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
No 3rd person discussed
If there is no 3rd person, how could the husband & wife discuss having sex with a 3rd person, unless they were discussing rupa khandha below:


Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
you seam to think it would not be a mutually benefiscial situation for all involved.
This statement is obviously wrong view in Buddhism; in that you assert an action motivated solely by sexual lust is "beneficial" according to Buddhism. Clearly what you have posted here is completely the opposite of the literal Buddhist teachings. :roll:
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:10 pm
Actually there are statistics showing that in general top 80% of women are having sex with top 20% of men. There are also studies that would support the notion that the men who are not in the top 20% are generally perceived as "below average" by women.
Sounds like non-sense to me. Regardless, as said before, the ways of the world of puthujjana are not the ways of Dhamma.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:10 pm
With the notion of hypergamy taken into consideration it is hardly surprising that women would have to compete a lot and would have to share.
The statistics you are referring to sounds like the promiscuous world of gold-digging swingers. Have you been watching those MGTOW videos? Most women are married to a husband or have a stable partner. As of 2006, 55.7% of Americans age 18 and over were married. Then there are those in committed relationships. The 80% women chasing 20% of the men you are referring to would be the hungry ghost ladies desperately chasing anything that shows an interest in them, i.e., the male predators.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:10 pm
To make matters worse it would be mentioned that women who failed to make the switch would have been killed and thus human females have been breeded for this trait of non-attachment.
This is obviously wrong. Females often have conflicting emotions thus, while they might possibly have a trait of adaptability, their primary dhammic trait is fidelity, as the Buddha taught in AN 6.52. While you are free to be a non-Buddhist and take refuge in science, the Buddha taught differently in AN 6.52. Women obviously primarily have a trait to maintain their families for the sake of the survival of their children (but then, as a last resort, may be able to adapt, when circumstances change drastically, such as in times of war or having a loser of a husband devoid of dhamma).

:strawman:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue May 01, 2018 1:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 01, 2018 1:53 am

i am not saying that i subscribe to the views that can be derived from biology, just saying that the world of sex is not black and white romantic fairytale.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 01, 2018 1:56 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:53 am
the world of sex
Again, "the world" is not "Dhamma".

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 01, 2018 2:00 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:14 am
The statistics you are referring to sounds like the promiscuous world of gold-digging swingers. Have you been watching those MGTOW videos? Most women are married to a husband or have a stable partner. As of 2006, 55.7% of Americans age 18 and over were married. Then there are those in committed relationships. The 80% women chasing 20% of the men you are referring to would be the hungry ghost ladies desperately chasing anything that shows an interest in them, i.e., the male predators.
about 40 to 50 percent of married couples in the United States divorce. The divorce rate for subsequent marriages is even higher.
While women are at their peak of attractiveness they also cheat more than men.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 01, 2018 2:02 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:56 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:53 am
the world of sex
Again, "the world" is not "Dhamma".
Why are you triggered by this research?
mgtows are angry and mostly stupid...

Do you mean that general population stats do not apply to Buddhists?
I am not advocating any kind of sex here at all, if anything i am pointing out how bad of an idea it is to get involved in any kind of sexual relationship...
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 01, 2018 2:18 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:02 am
Do you mean that general population stats do not apply to Buddhists?
I think a practising Buddhist should be able to do better because that is the purpose of Dhamma. But, sure, the average Western faith follower may be close to the ordinary worldly standards. The Buddha said:
If both husband & wife want to see one another not only in the present but also in the future, they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment.

AN 4.55
:heart:
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:02 am
I am not advocating any kind of sex here at all, if anything i am pointing out how bad of an idea it is to get involved in any kind of sexual relationship...
I'm not such a romantic, either. But then, non-sensual happiness was found many years ago.
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:00 am
While women are at their peak of attractiveness they also cheat more than men.
Women cheat due to old "issues" they carry inside. But women without "issues" don't cheat (Dhp 242). As an aspiring Buddhist, you need to step up and be a gift of safety for the lost women of the world. Be lokuttara (above the world). Because you believe in reincarnation, you think hungry ghost, hell & animal worlds are in a different world rather than in this world of mortals. But the hungry ghosts that burn with hunger, day & night, similar to starving children in Africa, are in the night clubs of this world.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 01, 2018 2:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:18 am
Women cheat due to old "issues" they carry inside. But women without "issues" don't cheat (Dhp 242). As an aspiring Buddhist, you need to step up and be a gift of safety for the lost women of the world. Be lokuttara (above the world).
have you yourself converted to buddhism yet or still with the nibbana in the here and now wanderers?

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 01, 2018 2:51 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:38 am
nibbana in the here and now
How will Nibbana after the termination of life be attained if Nibbana in the here & now is not attained. Also, since Nibbana in the here & now is an implicit Buddhist doctrine, to deny it sounds like heresy to me. For me, someone not interest in Nibbana here & now is not interested in Buddhism. Currently, I have one computer screen on work & another here. I spend my day working. DW is just for the spare time. Time to place a heretic on ignore. The suttas say to only teach Dhamma to those interested in Dhamma (AN 9.5).

:anjali:

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 01, 2018 2:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:51 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:38 am
nibbana in the here and now
How will Nibbana after the termination of life be attained if Nibbana in the here & now is not attained. Also, since Nibbana in the here & now is an implicit Buddhist doctrine, to deny it sounds like heresy to me. For me, someone not interest in Nibbana here & now is not interested in Buddhism. Currently, I have one computer screen on work & another here. I spend my day working. DW is just for the spare time. Time to place a heretic on ignore.

:anjali:
DN 1 Brahmajala Sutta: The All-Embracing Net of Views It is actually explicitly wrong view, stated as such and explained as wrong view by the Tathagata;
5. Doctrines of Nibbāna Here and Now (Diṭṭhadhammanibbānavāda): Views 58–62

93. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of Nibbāna here and now and who, on five grounds, proclaim Nibbāna here and now for an existent being. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

94. "Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine or view: 'When this self, good sir, furnished and supplied with the five strands of sense pleasures, revels in them — at this point the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

95. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because, good sir, sense pleasures are impermanent, suffering, subject to change, and through their change and transformation there arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. But when the self, quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by initial and sustained thought and contains the rapture and happiness born of seclusion — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

96. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because that jhāna contains initial and sustained thought; therefore it is declared to be gross. But when, with the subsiding of initial and sustained thought, the self enters and abides in the second jhāna, which is accompanied by internal confidence and unification of mind, is free from initial and sustained thought, and contains the rapture and happiness born of concentration — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

97. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because of the mental exhilaration connected with rapture that exists there. But when, with the fading away of rapture, one abides in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and still experiencing happiness with the body, enters and abides in the third jhāna, so that the ariyans announce: "He abides happily, in equanimity and mindfulness" — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

98. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because a mental concern, 'Happiness,' exists there. But when, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of previous joy and grief, one enters and abides in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure and pain and contains purification of mindfulness through equanimity — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

"This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands... and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.

99. "It is on these five grounds, bhikkhus, that these recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of Nibbāna here and now proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being. Whatever recluses or brahmins proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being, all of them do so on these five grounds or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.
...
103. "This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands. And he understands: 'These standpoints, thus assumed and thus misapprehended, lead to such a future destination, to such a state in the world beyond.' ...
Ye people should place the heretic on the ignore list.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Dhammanando » Tue May 01, 2018 11:44 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:56 am
It is actually explicitly wrong view, stated as such and explained as wrong view by the Tathagata;
In the suttas diṭṭhadhamma-nibbāna is in some places a term of censure (as in your quoted passage) but in others it's a term of approval. See for example:

Devadūtasutta, MN iii. 178-87
Dhammakathikasutta, SN. ii. 18
Naḷakalāpīsutta, SN. ii. 115
Dhammakathika and Dutiyadhammakathikasuttas, SN. iii. 163-5
Dhammakathikapucchasutta, SN. iv. 141
Diṭṭhadhammanibbānasutta, AN. iv. 454
Sambodhisutta, AN. iv. 351

  • “Though warned by the divine messengers,
    Full many are the negligent,
    And people may sorrow long indeed
    Once gone down to the lower world.
    But when by the divine messengers
    Good people here in this life are warned,
    They do not dwell in negligence
    But practise well the noble Dhamma.
    Clinging they look upon with fear
    For it produces birth and death;
    And by not clinging they are freed
    In the destruction of birth and death.
    They dwell in bliss for they are safe
    And reach Nibbāna here and now.
    They are beyond all fear and hate;
    They have escaped all suffering.”
    (Devadūta Sutta)

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 01, 2018 2:26 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:44 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:56 am
It is actually explicitly wrong view, stated as such and explained as wrong view by the Tathagata;
In the suttas diṭṭhadhamma-nibbāna is in some places a term of censure (as in your quoted passage) but in others it's a term of approval. See for example:

Devadūtasutta, MN iii. 178-87
Dhammakathikasutta, SN. ii. 18
Naḷakalāpīsutta, SN. ii. 115
Dhammakathika and Dutiyadhammakathikasuttas, SN. iii. 163-5
Dhammakathikapucchasutta, SN. iv. 141
Diṭṭhadhammanibbānasutta, AN. iv. 454
Sambodhisutta, AN. iv. 351

  • “Though warned by the divine messengers,
    Full many are the negligent,
    And people may sorrow long indeed
    Once gone down to the lower world.
    But when by the divine messengers
    Good people here in this life are warned,
    They do not dwell in negligence
    But practise well the noble Dhamma.
    Clinging they look upon with fear
    For it produces birth and death;
    And by not clinging they are freed
    In the destruction of birth and death.
    They dwell in bliss for they are safe
    And reach Nibbāna here and now.
    They are beyond all fear and hate;
    They have escaped all suffering.”
    (Devadūta Sutta)
Thank you, it was wrong of me to generalize the sutta position and to assume that Doot's teachers are teaching wrong view, calling them wanderers,i wouldnt know. Sorry about that.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Thu May 03, 2018 6:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:14 am
Cittasanto wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:01 pm
the op does not deal with that, as the situation as presented only indicates a discussion has been had between the two. That is up to those involved to consider.
There are obviously potentially three people involved here, rather than two, unless they discussed the following:
And again up to the couple to discuss. btw there is no theoretical discussion there.


Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
The Buddha could have made having multiple partners at the same time a breach of the precept for men, but didn't.
The precept was given together with other Buddhist practises, such as marrying of children, particularly daughters, when they came of age (DN 31).

you are talking about secular practices people at the time who were buddhists engaged in. as the precepts also have to be timeless the buddha would have left them open.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
the OP talks about biological needs (the desire to reproduce could be called that), hence the situation presented by myself above is a potential. The third party is not even being considered in the op as it is not at that stage. that would be upto the couple.
The OP is obviously referring to having male orgasms but it is you that seeks to create a wholesome veneer by mentioning reproduction. If the man wants to reproduce, he can hire a surrogate mother in a formal businesslike arrangement. [/quote]
it is not obvious that is all that is meant unless you read it narrowly. there are other possibilities and orgasm isn't required for ejaculation or impregnation to happen.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
No 3rd person discussed
If there is no 3rd person, how could the husband & wife discuss having sex with a 3rd person, unless they were discussing rupa khandha below:
you need to read that comment in timeframe of things. I am mainly dealing with the question posed exclusively. you are presuposing negativity, hence when I wrote that I pointed out the situation would not necesarily involve a sex slave and could be mutually benefiscial.

Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
you seam to think it would not be a mutually benefiscial situation for all involved.
This statement is obviously wrong view in Buddhism; in that you assert an action motivated solely by sexual lust is "beneficial" according to Buddhism. Clearly what you have posted here is completely the opposite of the literal Buddhist teachings. :roll:
and as pointed out not everyone is aiming to practice as a mendicant and need to deal with worldly situations.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by LuisR » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:25 pm

What about if you are out of town and you have an encounter with a woman that knows you are married. If your wife doesn't ask how bad would this be??

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