Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
steve19800
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Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by steve19800 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:45 am

Hi guys,

There is a true story where a couple just got married. Soon after marriage, the wife is diagnosed with certain illness by the doctor. To make it short, because of the illness, the wife is not allowed to have sexual intercourse. The husband, however, got permission from his wife that, if needed, he can have sexual intercourse with other woman to meet his biological need.

In this particular case, if the husband has sexual intercourse with other woman, does he break the 3rd precept? There are many answers to this question, since not all situations included in the Sutta, how do we know if the husband is breaking the third precept or not? Any thoughts will be great. Thanks!

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:03 pm

steve19800 wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:45 am
...he can have sexual intercourse with other woman to meet his biological need.
This sounds very theoretical. Who or what exactly is this "other woman"? Does this other woman have any feelings, emotions & eventually expectations when having sex with the man? Or is the "other woman" merely a series of different prostitutes? :shrug:

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:05 pm

In my opinion he would technically be in the clear however i think this is a bad way to treat the precepts and not how morality works. What i would be concerned with is if his wife was trully ok with it or not, because some will feel like they have no real option but to "give permission" even if it causes them great stress, in that case it is quite cruel imho.

it is not a biological need either, it is a perceived need and that perception is conditioned by non-development.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:09 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:05 pm
In my opinion he would technically be in the clear...
:reading:
In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:

(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments....

DN 31
Nakula's father said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since Nakula's mother as a young girl was brought to me [to be my wife] when I was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to her even in mind, much less in body. We want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."

AN 4.55
Dhp 242. Unchastity is the taint in a woman; niggardliness is the taint in a giver. Taints, indeed, are all evil things, both in this world and the next.
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:05 pm
it is not a biological need either, it is a perceived need and that perception is conditioned by non-development.
So hormones & chemicals are unrelated to those difficult to control urges? Why did Buddha called 'lust' a 'fire'?
Dhp 202. There is no fire like lust
The body is burning, tangibles are burning...Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust.... SN 35.28
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:12 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:09 pm
(iii) by being faithful to her,
Some people have several wives y'know and they are faithful to several wives. In times of the Buddha this was normal.

However, this is my personal opinion and it has not been directly stated by the Tathagata in the Suttas.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:13 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:12 pm
some people have several wives y'know and they are faithful to several wives.
Where? Who? Please quote a lay follower of the Buddha with several wives? Thanks

In AN 6.52, the Buddha said a woman does not want to share a husband with another woman.

Women have a man as their ambition. They explore for adornments. They’re committed to their children. They insist on being without a co-wife. Their ultimate goal is sovereignty (domination).

https://suttacentral.net/an6.52/en/sujato

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:21 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:13 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:12 pm
some people have several wives y'know and they are faithful to several wives.
Where? Who? Please quote a lay follower of the Buddha with several wives? Thanks

In AN 6.52, the Buddha said a woman does not want to share a husband with another woman.
There is a story of two brothers ordaining, the younger one had 3 wives and the other had 7.
The younger brother disrobed after being seduced by his 3 wives and the 7 also tried to seduce the older brother but to no vail because he was an Arahant .
The Story of Thera Mahakala

While residing in the neighbourhood of the town of Setabya, the Buddha uttered Verses (7) and (8) of this book, with reference to Mahakala and his brother Culakala. Mahakala and Culakala were two merchant brothers from the town of Setabya. While travelling about with their merchandise on one occasion, they had a chance to listen to a religious discourse given by the Buddha. After hearing the discourse Mahakala asked the Buddha for admission to the Order of the bhikkhus. Culakala also joined the Order but with the intention of coming out of the Order and to bring out his brother along with him.

Mahakala was serious in his ascetic practice at the cemetery (Sosanika dhutinga) and diligently meditated on decay and impermanence. He finally gained Insight and attained arahatship.

Later, the Buddha and his disciples, including the brothers, happened to be staying in the forest of Simsapa, near Setabya. While staying there, the former wives of Culakala invited the Buddha and his disciples to their house. Culakala himself went ahead to prepare seating arrangements for the Buddha and his disciples. Once there, the former wives of Culakala made him change into lay clothes.

The next day, the wives of Mahakala invited the Buddha and his disciples to their house hoping to do the same with Mahakala as the wives of Culakala had done to Culakala. After the meal they requested the Buddha to let Mahakala remain to "express appreciation" (anumodana). So the Buddha and the other disciples left.

Arriving at the village gate the bhikkhus expressed their dissatisfaction and apprehension. They were dissatisfied because Mahakala was permitted to stay behind and they were afraid that, like Culakala, his brother, Mahakala, too, would be made to leave the Order by his former wives. To this, the Buddha replied that the two brothers were not alike. Culakala indulged in sensual pleasures and was lazy and weak; he was just like a weak tree. Mahakala, on the other hand, was diligent, steadfast and strong in his faith of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Samgha; he was like a mountain of rock.
There are other references to it being quite standard in Buddhas time.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:25 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:21 pm
There is a story of two brothers ordaining the younger one had 3 wives and the other had 7. The younger brother disrobed after being seduced by his 3 wives and the 7 also tried to seduce the Arahant but obv to no vail.
Perhaps someone knows where it is from i don't remember, probably Dhammapada tho.
A story from a Dhp commentary written hundreds of years after the Buddha; similar to the millions of Hadith written after the death of Mohamed (PBUH). Ratthapala in MN 82 had many wives, which his family treated as bimbos, which is probably why Ratthapala left them to ordain. Unlike the Buddha who had one wife, Ratthapala did not return to enlighten his wives.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:29 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:25 pm
AN 3.34
Hatthaka Sutta: To Hatthaka

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Alavi on a spread of leaves by a cattle track in a simsapa forest. Then Hatthaka of Alavi, out roaming & rambling for exercise, saw the Blessed One sitting on a spread of leaves by the cattle track in the simsapa forest. On seeing him, he went to him and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, I hope the Blessed One has slept in ease."

"Yes, young man. I have slept in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, I am one."

"But cold, lord, is the winter night. The 'Between-the-Eights'[1] is a time of snowfall. Hard is the ground trampled by cattle hooves. Thin is the spread of leaves. Sparse are the leaves in the trees. Thin are your ochre robes. And cold blows the Verambha wind. Yet still the Blessed One says, 'Yes, young man. I have slept in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, I am one.'"

"In that case, young man, I will question you in return. Answer as you see fit. Now, what do you think: Suppose a householder or householder's son has a house with a gabled roof, plastered inside & out, draft-free, with close-fitting door & windows shut against the wind. Inside he has a horse-hair couch spread with a long-fleeced coverlet, a white wool coverlet, an embroidered coverlet, a rug of kadali-deer hide, with a canopy above, & red cushions on either side. And there a lamp would be burning, and his four wives, with their many charms, would be attending to him. Would he sleep in ease, or not? Or how does this strike you?"
fake sutta? How about king Bimbisara who was very much a Buddhist(sotapanna) and also had several wives? Also fake?
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:39 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:29 pm
fake sutta?
I never posted in ancient times some men did not have many wives. However, in an attempt to depart from the lack of empathy for women on this thread which hinders entry into the path, i merely asked did any devout stream-entry lay followers of the Buddha have many wives?

Now the sutta you posted appear to defeat your straw man view that lust is not biological. The sutta says:
Now, what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind?

Image
Further, in that sutta, having lust for many wives is not praised:
But what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of passion so that — burned with those passion-born fevers — he would sleep miserably?"

"Yes, lord."
Sensual desire is a hindrance to samadhi & the path. Thus Buddha said:
Paritto, upāli, attabhāvo gambhīre gādhaṃ na vindati. Evamevaṃ kho, upāli, yo evaṃ vadeyya: ‘ahaṃ samādhiṃ alabhamāno arañña­vana­patthāni pantāni senāsanāni paṭisevissāmī’ti, tassetaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ: ‘saṃsīdissati vā uplavissati vā’ti

:strawman: A small boy :jedi: does not find footing in the depths. So too, it can be expected that one who would say: "I do not gain concentration, yet I will resort to remote lodgings in forests & jungle groves' will either sink or fall away.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/an10.99
Therefore, for both the purpose of this topic & for the purpose of developing the path, I originally suggested to abandon the male sexual-objectification state of mind.

:heart: :hello: :zzz: Bed time
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:41 pm

you missed this part
How about king Bimbisara who was very much a Buddhist(sotapanna) and also had several wives
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:43 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:41 pm
you missed this part
How about king Bimbisara who was very much a Buddhist(sotapanna) and also had several wives
Please quote a sutta. Thanks. Also, after Bimbisara attained stream-entry, did Bimbisara continue to have sex with his many wives? :shrug: Regardless, how is having many wives related to this topic or related to modern life?
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:45 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:43 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:41 pm
you missed this part
How about king Bimbisara who was very much a Buddhist(sotapanna) and also had several wives
Please quote a sutta. Thanks
i won't waste more time talking to you i think i've proven already that several wives was a standard practice back then, has been since and it also is nowadays.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:47 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:45 pm
i won't waste more time talking to you i think i've proven already that several wives was a standard practice back then, has been since and it also is nowadays.
If the pornographic mind is not abandoned & compassion for women is not developed, samadhi will be impossible. Without compassion, no amount of asubha will bring right samadhi (imo) :|
A small boy does not find footing in the depths. So too, it can be expected that one who would say: "I do not gain concentration, yet I will resort to remote lodgings in forests & jungle groves' will either sink or fall away.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by santa100 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:09 pm

steve19800 wrote:In this particular case, if the husband has sexual intercourse with other woman, does he break the 3rd precept? There are many answers to this question, since not all situations included in the Sutta, how do we know if the husband is breaking the third precept or not? Any thoughts will be great.
Technically speaking, humans are just animals with big brains. But we do evolve far enough to distinguish ourselves as a very special kind of "animal". The biggest separating indicators are Hiri and Ottappa. A male cat has no problem mounting its own female mother cat in broad daylight and in front of everyone without any problem. A man would never ever think about it, let alone doing it. A dog would hump its female dogs anytime anywhere to satisfy its biological need. A man while also possessing this animal instinct, but at least he'd tend to carry it out as an expression of care and intimacy toward someone he loves. Of course, there're people who still operate squarely on the sheer animal level. So if one keeps in mind what it is exactly the goal and purpose of keeping the Five Precepts, is it to elevate us humans toward something more pure and noble?, or is it just some mechanical concept to adhere to just for the heck of it? With the proper thought, the OP question would naturally becomes irrelevant.

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