Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Cittasanto
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:19 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:16 pm
Oh i am pretty sure this is a fact.
I'm pretty sure what I wrote is also fact, namely, the ways of Dhamma are not the same as the ways of the world (Mara).
lay people (what this thread is about) are part of the world, and this issue is relevant to a precept that deals with how a layperson should act in the world for people who are in a similare situation.

This thread isn't disrespecting anyone as it stems from the OP where the wife is fully aware and has potentially sugested it.

:focus:
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:56 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
lay people (what this thread is about) are part of the world...
The term "the world" has different meanings. For example, just because sexual promiscuity, pedophilia or lying is practised by "the world" does not mean lay Buddhists should practise promiscuity, pedophilia or lying.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
this issue is relevant to a precept that deals with how a layperson should act in the world for people who are in a similare situation.
The man might be stuck with this woman due to actions he performed in a past life. Its sounds like you don't believe in kamma-vipaka; which MN 117 says is wrong view in Buddhism. Instead of practising the Dhamma of compassion (karuna); it seems the defilement of lust (raga) that leads to rebirth in animal hungry ghost & hell realms is being promoted here.
Bhikkhus, a god, a human or any other good state would not be evident from actions born of greed (lust), hate and delusion. Yet, bhikkhus, from actions born of greed (lust), hate and delusion a hellish being, an animal birth a ghostly birth or some other bad state would be evident.

AN 6.39
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Garrib » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:19 am

It just sounds like something to be avoided.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:35 am

Garrib wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:19 am
It just sounds like something to be avoided.
:goodpost:

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:30 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:56 am
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
lay people (what this thread is about) are part of the world...
The term "the world" has different meanings. For example, just because sexual promiscuity, pedophilia or lying is practised by "the world" does not mean lay Buddhists should practise promiscuity, pedophilia or lying.
no, however that argument doesn't negate the situation being put forward. One where the conversation could easily have been brought up by the wife.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
this issue is relevant to a precept that deals with how a layperson should act in the world for people who are in a similare situation.
The man might be stuck with this woman due to actions he performed in a past life. Its sounds like you don't believe in kamma-vipaka; which MN 117 says is wrong view in Buddhism. Instead of practising the Dhamma of compassion (karuna); it seems the defilement of lust (raga) that leads to rebirth in animal hungry ghost & hell realms is being promoted here.
not at all. there could be a situation where the wife has been left infertile and the situation arose as a means to carry on the husbands bloodline and for them both to stay together?

you speak of compassion, yet show none for both sides eaqually? there are two people here and both have needs, wants and desires. the Buddha never said all could or should follow the renunciate life.

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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:54 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:30 pm
no, however that argument doesn't negate the situation being put forward. One where the conversation could easily have been brought up by the wife.
This appears to still not change the lack of consideration about who & what will this other woman be and the consequences upon her. You seem to have the view that there is a pool of women out there for exploitation or use by men who need to satisfy random male sexual lusts. I continue to discern a lack of empathy for women here & merely a macho male orientated, even pornographic, outlook of male self-cherishing. For example, in the Buddha's time, I imagine only a wealthy man could consider such an arrangement where they could buy & financially support a mistress or courtesan or sex slave.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
not at all.
So like a Buddha, are you declaring here to know the workings of kamma over billions of lifetimes of billions of beings?
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
there could be a situation where the wife has been left infertile and the situation arose as a means to carry on the husbands bloodline and for them both to stay together?
"Could be", you say, even though it appears you are not confident of the real facts of the kammic inheritence that lead to the present reincarnation? So you appear here to dismiss the doctrine of kamma & rebirth but fall back on a doctrine similar to the Protestant King Henry VIII of England who changed the laws of God so he could divorce his infertile wives (rather than behead them, as he previously did)?

Recall what happened in the Jewish Old Testament when Abraham believed the wife has been left infertile and the situation arose as a means to carry on the husbands bloodline. His wife Sarah gave Abraham her slave girl Hagi and Abraham & Hagi had sex together to bear a son (who eventually became the patriarch of the Muslims). Abraham & Sarah were proved totally wrong in their judgments of kamma & reincarnation because God himself had to tell them they were wrong; that the heir born via the slave girl Hagi was not the bloodline of the Chosen People. Even Sarah bore the heir of the Chosen People when she was 90 or 100 years old or similar age.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
you speak of compassion, yet show none for both sides equally?
Since when was compassion encouraging people to engage in mere sexual lust? Where does the Dhamma say this? Dhamma says any action motived purely by lust is unwholesome and leads to rebirth in the lower worlds. You claim to speak of compassion for both sides equally yet show none to the theoretical 3rd party, who you appear to completely sexually objectify, like in a pornographic movie, and strip the 3rd party of any emotional feeling & response when/as being the provider of sexual services to this man who is unable to accept his kammic reincarnation & inheritance.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
there are two people here and both have needs, wants and desires.
Where was it ever said the wife has a "need"? Also, as I mentioned a number of times, there are more than two people here. You keep asserting there are two people in this arrangement when there is obviously at least three people.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
the Buddha never said all could or should follow the renunciate life.
The Buddha never said women should be used as mere sex objects. The Buddha condemned womanizing, sexual promiscuity & having sex with prostitutes. Therefore, returning to my original post on this topic, my original question remains unanswered, namely:
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:03 pm

This sounds very theoretical. Who or what exactly is this "other woman"? Does this other woman have any feelings, emotions & eventually expectations when having sex with the man? Or is the "other woman" merely a series of different prostitutes? :shrug:
:mrgreen:

Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:24 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:09 pm
i am tired of females objectifying me... they keep looking at me as a man or worse a baby making prospect
Sure. But if you don't want this, just give women up. I gave women up many years ago but women continue objectify me all the time; such as hug me without my permission. Since I let them hug me but I do not respond emotionally in return, no harm is done. That you believe women view you as a baby making prospect should help you develop a more wholesome view of women; that what women are often really interested in is babies & families (as the Buddha seemed to teach in AN 6.52). Why do you think celibacy is so easy for the Noble Ones? What is there to desire or crave from women when they are mostly a burden of obligations & responsibilities?
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:09 pm
instead of the 31 bodyparts, let alone the 6 elements.
Dhamma is for you to practise rather than for most women, who often have natural, often uncontrollable urge & duty, to copulate & reproduce.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:09 pm
No wonder "how to get pregnant" is among the top internet searches
Is it? Lol. A really cute girl, new young single mum, has moved in near me and my good friend said to me: "I was her school teacher" and I replied to him: "But you didn't teach her about birth control". Not that I would teach girls about birth control but rather how to understand & fulfill their natural desires wholesomely.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:09 pm
Did i tell you about the time a woman raped me... beware of them wemen...
Lol... you must be a weakling or was otherwise intoxicated. Lol... the benefits of the 5th precept. :jumping:
This was said by the Blessed One who knows & sees, worthy and rightly self-awakened: 'Come now, monks: with regard to women who are old enough to be your mother, establish the attitude you would have toward your mother. With regard to women who are old enough to be your sister, establish the attitude you'd have toward a sister. With regard to women who are young enough to be your daughter, establish the attitude you'd have toward a daughter.' This is one reason, this is one cause, great king, why young monks — black-haired, endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — without having played with sensual pleasures nevertheless follow the lifelong chaste life, perfect & pure, and make it last their entire lives.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by binocular » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:37 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:30 pm
you speak of compassion, yet show none for both sides eaqually? there are two people here and both have needs, wants and desires.
So much for "in sickness and in health".

Anyway, I've heard from Ven. Dhammanando that in Thailand, the type of arrangement as mentioned in the OP actually exists (although I presume only in the wealthier class). Namely, if the wife doesn't want to have as much sex as her husband, she finds for him a mistress who has sex with him. This mistress then lives with them; in her status, she is above the servants, but not equal to the spouses.
the Buddha never said all could or should follow the renunciate life.
The Buddha also never said that sex is a "biological need".
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by binocular » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:03 pm
This sounds very theoretical. Who or what exactly is this "other woman"? Does this other woman have any feelings, emotions & eventually expectations when having sex with the man? Or is the "other woman" merely a series of different prostitutes?
When talking about sex as a "biological need", feelings, emotions, morality don't enter the picture.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:52 pm

I was trolling a bit , it was true albeit a hyperbole of a post. I do not agree with your assertion that people are hostile to women here or sexually obsessed. My impression is that there is next to none sex talk here in general and by far most men are on the blue pill spectrum. I don't think i could name anybody hostile to women or even a single MRA/MGTOW person. Actually whenever people bring up non-vanilla sexuality it is always criticized by conservatives like it is north korea or something and afaik nobody has expressed categorical opposition to female ordination.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:24 pm
Lol... you must be a weakling or was otherwise intoxicated. Lol... the benefits of the 5th precept. :jumping:
Neither weakling nor intoxicated, i was sleeping actually.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:24 pm
Dhamma is for you to practise rather than for most women, who often have natural, often uncontrollable urge & duty, to copulate & reproduce.
If you are trying to champion for feminismus you are doing it wrong imho :tongue:
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:01 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:54 pm
Cittasanto wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:30 pm
no, however that argument doesn't negate the situation being put forward. One where the conversation could easily have been brought up by the wife.
This appears to still not change the lack of consideration about who & what will this other woman be and the consequences upon her. You seem to have the view that there is a pool of women out there for exploitation or use by men who need to satisfy random male sexual lusts. I continue to discern a lack of empathy for women here & merely a macho male orientated, even pornographic, outlook of male self-cherishing. For example, in the Buddha's time, I imagine only a wealthy man could consider such an arrangement where they could buy & financially support a mistress or courtesan or sex slave.
the op does not deal with that, as the situation as presented only indicates a discussion has been had between the two. That is up to those involved to consider.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
not at all.
So like a Buddha, are you declaring here to know the workings of kamma over billions of lifetimes of billions of beings?
not in the slitest. I am only taking the situation as far as the op has gone. The Buddha could have made having multiple partners at the same time a breach of the precept for men, but didn't.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
there could be a situation where the wife has been left infertile and the situation arose as a means to carry on the husbands bloodline and for them both to stay together?
"Could be", you say, even though it appears you are not confident of the real facts of the kammic inheritence that lead to the present reincarnation? So you appear here to dismiss the doctrine of kamma & rebirth but fall back on a doctrine similar to the Protestant King Henry VIII of England who changed the laws of God so he could divorce his infertile wives (rather than behead them, as he previously did)?

Recall what happened in the Jewish Old Testament when Abraham believed the wife has been left infertile and the situation arose as a means to carry on the husbands bloodline. His wife Sarah gave Abraham her slave girl Hagi and Abraham & Hagi had sex together to bear a son (who eventually became the patriarch of the Muslims). Abraham & Sarah were proved totally wrong in their judgments of kamma & reincarnation because God himself had to tell them they were wrong; that the heir born via the slave girl Hagi was not the bloodline of the Chosen People. Even Sarah bore the heir of the Chosen People when she was 90 or 100 years old or similar age.
The situation is in the here and now, not a past life.
We are dealing with a current time situation regarding Buddhist precepts.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
you speak of compassion, yet show none for both sides equally?
Since when was compassion encouraging people to engage in mere sexual lust? Where does the Dhamma say this? Dhamma says any action motived purely by lust is unwholesome and leads to rebirth in the lower worlds. You claim to speak of compassion for both sides equally yet show none to the theoretical 3rd party, who you appear to completely sexually objectify, like in a pornographic movie, and strip the 3rd party of any emotional feeling & response when/as being the provider of sexual services to this man who is unable to accept his kammic reincarnation & inheritance.
the OP talks about biological needs (the desire to reproduce could be called that), hence the situation presented by myself above is a potential. The third party is not even being considered in the op as it is not at that stage. that would be upto the couple.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
there are two people here and both have needs, wants and desires.
Where was it ever said the wife has a "need"? Also, as I mentioned a number of times, there are more than two people here. You keep asserting there are two people in this arrangement when there is obviously at least three people.
where is the third person mentioned in the op. to my knowledge there was a discussion and finding out if it was against the precepts, as yet there is no third person.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
the Buddha never said all could or should follow the renunciate life.
The Buddha never said women should be used as mere sex objects. The Buddha condemned womanizing, sexual promiscuity & having sex with prostitutes. Therefore, returning to my original post on this topic, my original question remains unanswered, namely:
you seam to think it would not be a mutually benefiscial situation for all involved.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:03 pm

This sounds very theoretical. Who or what exactly is this "other woman"? Does this other woman have any feelings, emotions & eventually expectations when having sex with the man? Or is the "other woman" merely a series of different prostitutes? :shrug:
If you go beyond the scope of the OP it will sound very theoretical.
:focus:
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:10 pm

Actually there are statistics showing that in general top 80% of women are having sex with top 20% of men. There are also studies that would support the notion that the men who are not in the top 20% are generally perceived as "below average" by women.

With the notion of hypergamy taken into consideration it is hardly surprising that women would have to compete a lot and would have to share.

An evolutionary biologist might also mention that back in the dizay, in dem tribal communities the females were in general not part-taking in warfare and if two tribes, tribe A) and tribe B) went to war, the male population of the losing tribe would often be expected to be exterminated whilst the male population of the winning tribe would have been expected to be reduced. The winning tribe would be expected take all the women remaining and these would be expected to "learn to love" their new men and breed with them. To make matters worse it would be mentioned that women who failed to make the switch would have been killed and thus human females have been breeded for this trait of non-attachment.

So if two tribes with a population of 1000 went to war, each having roughly 550 women and the winning tribe losing 1/3 of it's male population and the losing tribe losing 1/5 women, that would leave total 300 men and 990 women. So the men remaining could kill two women each and there would still be "left over" women.

There are also in general more women than men in the world, a biologist would say that it is because conceiving and giving birth to a male demands more resources, which is basically a no-brainer as far as biology goes as boys are a little heavier. I think the probability of conceiving a female is ~53% or so on avg.

:? being human kind of sucks

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 01, 2018 1:14 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:01 pm
the op does not deal with that, as the situation as presented only indicates a discussion has been had between the two. That is up to those involved to consider.
There are obviously potentially three people involved here, rather than two, unless they discussed the following:



Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
The Buddha could have made having multiple partners at the same time a breach of the precept for men, but didn't.
The precept was given together with other Buddhist practises, such as marrying of children, particularly daughters, when they came of age (DN 31). Thus the precept refers to daughters "protected by their family". To cite the precept without reference to the other teachings about family is obviously not the totality of the Dhamma. Similar to Gotama & his followers mentioned in the suttas, most people in the Buddha's society were married as teenagers, when they became sexually mature. To quote AN 4.55:
Nakula's father said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since Nakula's mother as a young girl was brought to me [to be my wife] when I was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to her even in mind, much less in body... Nakula's mother said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since I as a young girl was brought to Nakula's father [to be his wife] when he was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to him even in mind, much less in body. We want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come.

AN 4.55
:heart:
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
We are dealing with a current time situation regarding Buddhist precepts.
My impression is you might not understand what the precepts actually are; as I just suggested.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
the OP talks about biological needs (the desire to reproduce could be called that), hence the situation presented by myself above is a potential. The third party is not even being considered in the op as it is not at that stage. that would be upto the couple.
The OP is obviously referring to having male orgasms but it is you that seeks to create a wholesome veneer by mentioning reproduction. If the man wants to reproduce, he can hire a surrogate mother in a formal businesslike arrangement.
Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
No 3rd person discussed
If there is no 3rd person, how could the husband & wife discuss having sex with a 3rd person, unless they were discussing rupa khandha below:


Cittasanto wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:34 pm
you seam to think it would not be a mutually benefiscial situation for all involved.
This statement is obviously wrong view in Buddhism; in that you assert an action motivated solely by sexual lust is "beneficial" according to Buddhism. Clearly what you have posted here is completely the opposite of the literal Buddhist teachings. :roll:
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:10 pm
Actually there are statistics showing that in general top 80% of women are having sex with top 20% of men. There are also studies that would support the notion that the men who are not in the top 20% are generally perceived as "below average" by women.
Sounds like non-sense to me. Regardless, as said before, the ways of the world of puthujjana are not the ways of Dhamma.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:10 pm
With the notion of hypergamy taken into consideration it is hardly surprising that women would have to compete a lot and would have to share.
The statistics you are referring to sounds like the promiscuous world of gold-digging swingers. Have you been watching those MGTOW videos? Most women are married to a husband or have a stable partner. As of 2006, 55.7% of Americans age 18 and over were married. Then there are those in committed relationships. The 80% women chasing 20% of the men you are referring to would be the hungry ghost ladies desperately chasing anything that shows an interest in them, i.e., the male predators.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:10 pm
To make matters worse it would be mentioned that women who failed to make the switch would have been killed and thus human females have been breeded for this trait of non-attachment.
This is obviously wrong. Females often have conflicting emotions thus, while they might possibly have a trait of adaptability, their primary dhammic trait is fidelity, as the Buddha taught in AN 6.52. While you are free to be a non-Buddhist and take refuge in science, the Buddha taught differently in AN 6.52. Women obviously primarily have a trait to maintain their families for the sake of the survival of their children (but then, as a last resort, may be able to adapt, when circumstances change drastically, such as in times of war or having a loser of a husband devoid of dhamma).

:strawman:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue May 01, 2018 1:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 01, 2018 1:53 am

i am not saying that i subscribe to the views that can be derived from biology, just saying that the world of sex is not black and white romantic fairytale.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 01, 2018 1:56 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:53 am
the world of sex
Again, "the world" is not "Dhamma".
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