Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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mario92
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Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by mario92 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:10 am

If breaking 3rd Precept in the past and punishment is being gay, can one Pay that bad kamma by doing so? For example you became gay of looking too much woman, an then you startup to became one, and Nature makes oneself start to like man? Is that right view? I feel only confidence to say this beteeen buddhist Fellows. Thank you.
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DooDoot
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Re: Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:18 am

I think we might find there are no teachings of the Buddha to support the above idea.

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mario92
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Re: Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by mario92 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:28 am

I had heard that breaking the 3rd Precept the result is becoming gay or sexual derangement, , i think There is a sutta that teach this, but i don't know exactly What sutta is thank you
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DooDoot
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Re: Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:34 am

I doubt there is a sutta but i have read a cultural teaching from probably hundreds of years after the Buddha (which I don't agree with).



The above idea contradicts DN 27, which says male & female existed before sexual activity (although I don't believe in DN 27 either).
And these beings set to and fed on this rice, and this lasted for a very long time. And as they did so, their bodies became coarser still, and the difference in their looks became even greater. And the females developed female sex-organs, and the males developed male organs. And the women became excessively preoccupied with men, and the men with women. Owing to this excessive preoccupation with each other, passion was aroused, and their bodies burnt with lust. And later, because of this burning, they indulged in sexual activity

DN 27
If rebirth as a woman results from male sexual misconduct then originally there must have been no women & all beings were men & thus gay. At least to me, its illogical.

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mario92
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Re: Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by mario92 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:18 am

May be the past Aeon, thanks for Sharing :)
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TamHanhHi
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Re: Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by TamHanhHi » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:49 pm

I really don't see how being gay would be a consequence/punishment for past bad kamma, and as far as I know there's nothing in the Canon to suggest that that might be the case.
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."—AN 5.38 :candle:

perkele
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Re: Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by perkele » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:59 pm

mario92 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:10 am
If breaking 3rd Precept in the past and punishment is being gay, can one Pay that bad kamma by doing so?
What do you mean "by doing so"? Do you mean "by being gay"?

First of all, I think it is not quite accurate to think about kamma as a "debt" which has to be "paid". That is just a metaphor: "debt" and "payment". It is not the reality. There is nobody waiting for the payment, nobody saying "pay me back the kammic debt that you owe me". Nobody wants to have you pay back anything.

Kamma is just cause and effect of your actions. I think a better metaphor is "sowing" (sembrar) and "reaping" (segar -> esquilmar). Of course this also is only a metaphor, but I think it is a better metaphor. Because it is about what you do, and what the results for you are, without any third party being involved or affected directly, and no "accountant" keeping some kind of protocol.

I think it is also not appropriate in general to think about it as "punishment" in case of something bad, or as "reward" in case of something good. These are all just metaphors. Sometimes they can be useful, but sometimes I think they are just not applicable.

If you are homosexual, what else can you do than to be homosexual? It makes no sense to say that thereby you are "paying a kammic debt".
I am not paying back any kammic debts either by being horny for pretty women, I think. Pretty sure that's not how it works.

Being sexually attracted to men, or being sexually attracted to women are just two different flavours of the same sensual desire. The way to get rid of sensual desire is by not feeding it. I think that is the same whether you are attracted to men or to women. It is not by paying back some kind of debt. It is simply by not following the desire, not giving it more nourishment. No matter whether it is sexual desire for men or sexual desire for women.
mario92 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:10 am
For example you became gay of looking too much woman, an then you startup to became one, and Nature makes oneself start to like man? Is that right view?
I don't think so. This seems illogical to me. Why would "looking too much woman" (in a lustful way, I assume) cause one to be attracted to men? If anything, I think it would just reinforce and perpetuate an existing sexual attraction to women. By giving more nourishment to some desire, I think it simply becomes more of the same desire. (But I also think sexual attraction to men or to women is fundamentally quite the same, and people can be attracted to both, so I think even both "flavours" could simply nourish and reinforce each other.)
mario92 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:18 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:34 am
I doubt there is a sutta but i have read a cultural teaching from probably hundreds of years after the Buddha (which I don't agree with).
/.../
May be the past Aeon, thanks for Sharing :)
That is all just fantasy. Do you remember the past aeon?

And I think you may have misunderstood: The passage quoted by DooDoot in the included image taken from Google Books, about "being reborn as a woman" as a result of sexual misconduct, is apparently not from the suttas, but from some commentary probably hundreds of years later where probably many things got embellished and slightly distorted.

If I understand correctly, this is not from the suttas:
Sexuality in Classical South Asian Buddhism wrote:This is why the Lord has said:
  • They are reborn as women for five hundred births
    and also as pandakas or queer men (ma ning).
    They become horrible lepers...
But this is from the suttas:
AN 8.40 (English) wrote:"Illicit sexual behavior — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from illicit sexual behavior is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to rivalry & revenge.
AN 8.40 (Spanish) wrote:“La conducta sexual inapropiada, perseguida repetidamente, desarrollada y cultivada, conduce al infierno, al reino animal, a la esfera de los espíritus hambrientos; [y en el caso del] renacimiento como ser humano, [tratándose de] la conducta sexual inapropiada, como mínimo, conduce a enemistad y rivalidad.
mario92 wrote:I think karma is the first topic we should understand before starting in meditation.
Not sure about this. And not sure to what extent.

The Buddha warned us here:
AN 4.77 wrote:"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
The sutta teachings are obviously much simpler and less specific than the other passage quoted above.
Here is an answer on buddhism.stackexchange.com in the same vein to the same kind of question. As the author of that answer states:
ChrisW wrote:given that the workings of karma are difficult to explain, to predict, to know (i.e. perhaps only the Buddha is able to do it), I mistrust non-canonical opinions on that subject.
I agree with that. I think it is good to mistrust non-canonical opinions about the specific results of the working of karma. The Buddha taught some very general outlines in the Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta (Spanish translation) and the Maha-kamma-vibhanga sutta (Spanish translation), and not anything much more specific than that. If anybody teaches something much more specific about specific results for specific actions, I think they will probably come to experience some measure of madness and vexation :rolleye: as a result of such detailed conjecturing.
Don't make too many assumptions on the specifics of what you cannot know, if even the Buddha taught that anyone making such assumptions would simply go insane.
mario92 (signature) wrote:I think karma is the first topic we should understand before starting in meditation.
I think you can learn to understand present kamma while meditating. But about past kamma, aeons ago, you can only fantasize if you have not developed the ability to remember past lives.

[Edited for correction: "author of that question" => "author of that answer"]
Last edited by perkele on Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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mario92
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Re: Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by mario92 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:18 pm

Ok thanks perkele, :goodpost:
sometimes i think it would be more easy if i know, what actions i had done in the past so then i would able to endure and be patient a certain amount of time, and Focus in that practice.
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manas
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Re: Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by manas » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm

mario92 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:10 am
If breaking 3rd Precept in the past and punishment is being gay, can one Pay that bad kamma by doing so? For example you became gay of looking too much woman, an then you startup to became one, and Nature makes oneself start to like man? Is that right view? I feel only confidence to say this beteeen buddhist Fellows. Thank you.
I suggest you put such questions out of your mind, and just focus on practicing virtue, mental development and wisdom. Life is too short to ponder the issue you raised. We don't know how much time we still have, to practice the Dhamma.
:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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mario92
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Re: Kamma debt of breaking Precept

Post by mario92 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:29 pm

Thanks yes i think i hadnt been intelligent.
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