Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:09 pm You, my friend, very often play the man (or person)
Does that count as "playing the person", or is it "playing the ball"? It seems to be saying something about me, something that I often do. No different from, say, saying that someone is very often confused.
It counts as "playing the ball" because it is discussion about your conduct/words, not discussion about your personal characteristics or state of mind. There is a difference between saying (i) "you often play the man" (addressing action); and (ii) "you very often are confused" (addressing the person's state of mind).
You, L.N., engage in virtue signalling. Most of your posts refer to the very high standards of Buddhist virtue that you expect others to adhere to. Even though you don't noticeably adhere to them yourself. There! That's the ball played!
I appreciate your comment, but you are playing the person. By addressed my purported "virtue signaling," you are asserting that I am a hypocrite, insofar as I do not practice what I preach. To the extent you assert that I am a hypocrite, this is "playing the person." To the extent you criticize my actions and/or words, this is "playing the ball," as by speaking words or expressing a viewpoint, I have placed a "ball" in play. In the spirit of friendliness and mutual respect, I have not placed my "person" in play, and I have never intended to question your personal characteristics or state of mind, Sam Vara. As stated, I agree with the vast majority of what you post here. My opinion is that you shoot yourself in the foot when you mix this together with personal commentary about others' characteristics or perceived state of mind, but of course you are not bound by my opinion, and you can do as you wish.
In my defense, I am not virtue signaling when I post about Right Speech. I acknowledge that I may not always practice Right Speech, and I ask forgiveness and understanding when this occurs. Sam Vara, if I have offended you (which I do not presume to think that I have), I certainly apologize. However, I have been entirely sincere in the viewpoints stated. My understanding is that sincerity is inconsistent with "virtue signaling," and therefore, to the extent you still believe I am "virtue signaling," you are making a judgment about my state of mind (i.e., whether I am sincere or not). This is your right. When you express such personalized statements to others (such as me), you may expect them to ask you politely not to do so. This is not necessarily an effort to control or censor you, but an effort to adhere to common standards of friendliness and mutual respect. It may be that "common standards of friendliness and mutual respect" do not exist.
... the worst that can happen is that those particular words might be applied to you.
That is not the worst that can happen. I don't care if the words are applied to me. I believe I have a better sense of my state of mind and personal characteristics than you have, or than others have, unless they have psychic powers of which I am not aware. So it is easy for me to accept what is true (e.g., I sometimes come across as arrogant, and this may appear to be prissiness) and reject was is not true (e.g., I know it to be untrue when people question my sincerity or accuse me of intentional hypocrisy).
And that, as you have said above, is OK in "personballs" terms, even if unjustified in some cases.
I don't know what "personballs" means and I'm too lazy right now to google the term and find out.
As for me, I'm not undertaking that particular restriction,
That is entirely your decision and your kamma
and nor will I require others to do so
Nor do I require you to do so or anyone else, but I do wish we could converse in mutual friendliness and mutual respect, without the below-the-belt personal attacks
, because (at the risk of repeating myself) there is nothing in the Buddha's formulation of Right Speech or the TOS which requires it.
Well, there is the following:
mikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:18 am"Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction,
to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do.
"While you are doing a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction,
to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.
"Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction,
to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.
But your are correct, it is not required. And application of TOS is entirely up to the Team, not you or me.
I agree to disagree with you, both about your views re Right Speech and also about your judgments of me as a person.