Right Speech: Getting Personal

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Locked

I can see how the following comment(s) might reasonably be taken personally by someone else.

(1) "I disagree with you."
2
3%
(2) "You are incorrect."
6
8%
(3) "How could a person with the qualities you advocate ever take the position you hold to be true?"
6
8%
(4) "Here is the source of your confusion." (When you do not believe you are confused.)
7
9%
(5) "... backing away slowly ..." (followed by eye-roll emoji)
13
17%
(6) "You are too pig-headed to listen."
14
18%
(7) A post pointing out "your increasingly hysterical comments."
10
13%
(8) "You are a solipsist."
7
9%
(9) "That is your own idiosyncratic view, but the Buddha teaches ..."
7
9%
(10) "I can see how my comment may have offended you."
4
5%
 
Total votes: 76

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20122
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:41 am

Greetings L.N.,
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:23 am
Nobody is responsible for my reactions but me. Anybody who has read my other posts on this Forum will see that I have consistently advocated personal responsibility, across the board.
Does this sense of emotional self-responsibility extend to personal reactions to the existence of topics whose subject matter is in conflict with one's own personal preferences?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:44 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:41 am
Does this sense of emotional self-responsibility extend to personal reactions to the existence of topics whose subject matter is in conflict with one's own personal preferences?
Yes. What is your point? That Members should not speak out unless you agree with them?

Are you the person who edited the OP? I understand you can and will do whatever you want. You are responsible for your reactions, too.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20122
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:51 am

Greetings,
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:44 am
Yes. What is your point? That Members should not speak out unless you agree with them?
Members (including you, including me) can say what they like, so long as they adhere to the Terms of Service.... and they won't be censored merely because their words or chosen subject matter has offended the sensibilities of any individual members (including you, including me).

My "point", as you call it, was just about the principle of taking ownership of one's own mind and reactions, applying sense restraint where relevant, and the general decorum of not making one's private emotional turmoils a public matter.
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:44 am
Are you the person who edited the OP? I understand you can and will do whatever you want. You are responsible for your reactions, too.
No. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:54 am

By the way, the following is an excellent point:
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:03 pm
A civil society certainly values courtesy and consideration, but no person is inherently entitled to this. To the world, to society, one's feelings are absolutely insignificant and it is inflated self-indulgence to think otherwise. To ourselves and to our loved ones, feelings are valued and acknowledged, but do not in the least expect this from a complete stranger or society at large. They owe nothing to ones subjectivity. Do not expect it, and if kind consideration does occur then it is a delightful privilege, not a right.
As stated, we are all responsible for the kamma we ourselves perform. This personal responsibility has been the point from the very beginning of this Topic. A point which apparently has been missed by many here.
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:51 am
Members (including you, including me) can say what they like, so long as they adhere to the Terms of Service.... and they won't be censored merely because their words or chosen subject matter has offended the sensibilities of any individual members (including you, including me).
Nobody has advocated censorship. I don't know where you got that from.
My "point", as you call it, was just about the principle of taking ownership of one's own mind and reactions, applying sense restraint where relevant, and the general decorum of not making one's private emotional turmoils a public matter.
That has been my point as well.
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:44 am
Are you the person who edited the OP? I understand you can and will do whatever you want. You are responsible for your reactions, too.
No. I have no idea what you're talking about.
My mistake, It's actually the OP of the other controversial Topic I started which has been altered, not this OP. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=30614 Perhaps as the almighty administrator, you can look back and see who edited the OP in that Topic. I don't know if you or anyone else edited the OP in this topic.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20122
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:02 am

Greetings L.N.,
Nobody has advocated censorship. I don't know where you got that from.
That's funny, you were awfully insistent in a recent topic that any and all discussion and critique of Islam and Mohammad should be stopped.

Have you changed your position, and become tolerant to the existence of such discussion?

Have you come to respect the autonomy of others to decide for themselves whether participation in such topics is of net benefit?

Is your crusade now over?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:02 am
That's funny, you were awfully insistent that any discussion and critique of Islam and Mohammad should be stopped.
Yes, I still am insistent the discussion and critique should be much more measured. You should rein in the hate speech about other faiths, especially in light of the persecution of Rohingya Muslims at the hands of self-identified Buddhists. But again, that is your business, and your kamma to perform.
Have you changed your position, and become tolerant to the existence of such discussion?
While I am open to changing my position, in this instance I have not changed any position. Rather, you have misunderstood my position from the very start.
Have you come to respect the autonomy of others to decide for themselves whether participation in such topics is of net benefit?
Have you stopped beating your wife? What kind of silly question is that. You are the one who hijacked this thread for the purpose of making personalized comments about me. I does not feel as though you have respected the autonomy of others to speak messages with which you personally disagree.
Is your crusade now over?
If you mean my efforts to discuss Dhamma in a meaningful way, no, this is not yet over.

If it hasn't dawned on you yet, you have completely missed my point. Your posts have helped to make my point regarding personalized comments. You probably still don't get it.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20122
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:23 am

Greetings L.N.,
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:02 am
That's funny, you were awfully insistent that any discussion and critique of Islam and Mohammad should be stopped.
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
Yes, I still am insistent the discussion and critique should be much more measured. You should rein in the hate speech about other faiths, especially in light of the persecution of Rohingya Muslims at the hands of self-identified Buddhists. But again, that is your business, and your kamma to perform.
Ah, so in fact you are advocating censorship and controls, despite your "Nobody has advocated censorship. I don't know where you got that from" protests. Glad we cleared that up.
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
I does not feel as though you have respected the autonomy of others to speak messages with which you personally disagree.
That's interesting.... I don't recall censoring or starting up a rally cry for the censorship of those with whom I personally disagree. I don't recall starting up a poll trying to demonize, tar, and feather those whose speech upset me. I don't remember reporting a whole swathe of posts that violated my personal feelings, but did not violate the Terms of Service.

Oh, that's right, that was you, wasn't it? :)

Don't think your double-standards and hypocrisy will get you very far with me, mate.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:28 am

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:01 am
It is not meant to be workable for the forum. It is meant to be workable for oneself. In other words, when one makes a personalized comment, playing the person rather than the ball, one can anticipate unexpected responses. In which case one can take personal responsibility for the words spoken. As the poll shows, different people have different ideas of what comments might reasonably be taken personally.
I didn't say "workable for the forum". I said "workable on the forum". I entirely agree that when one makes a personalised comment, playing the person, etc., one can anticipate unexpected responses. But as I didn't make a personalised comment, your point does not apply. Your entire point is based upon simply choosing your particular interpretation against the good advice of others.

The poll does not show that anyone would take the comment that I made personally. The poll does not ask whether people would take a particular statement personally, having been told by the person who made it that it was not personal. I also note that the poll does not ask whether, having taken a particular interpretation, one should repeatedly denounce the author despite their remonstration that the interpretation is wrong. Nor does the poll ask whether people think that it is possible to misinterpret someone's utterance.
The point is that it was a personalized comment
Unsupported repetition. Who allows you to judge with objectivity and finality whether comments are personal? The point is that it was a comment that you chose to interpret as being personal. Despite reassurances that it was not, and that you did not need to. And yet you maintain that you take responsibility for your actions. Why do you not take responsibility for interpreting the words of others? That interpretation is a mental act which is free in that you could have done otherwise, you could have revised that interpretation. It could have been a misinterpretation. It is this insistence on your own self-righteousness that makes your holier-than-thou routine so risible.
Last edited by Sam Vara on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:41 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5794
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by Aloka » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:08 am

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
If you mean my efforts to discuss Dhamma in a meaningful way, no, this is not yet over.

If it hasn't dawned on you yet, you have completely missed my point. Your posts have helped to make my point regarding personalized comments. You probably still don't get it.
Why keep on arguing all the time ? Let go, let go, let go!

Worth consideration......

"Monks, there is the case where some worthless men study the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. Having studied the Dhamma, they don't ascertain the meaning (or: the purpose) of those Dhammas [5] with their discernment. Not having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they don't come to an agreement through pondering.

They study the Dhamma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate. They don't reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. Their wrong grasp of those Dhammas will lead to their long-term harm & suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the Dhammas.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:anjali:

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:53 pm

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:17 am
The title of the Topic is "Right Speech." This is a forum devoted to Dhamma discussion. This Topic clearly was intended to be about the Dhamma from the starting gate.
You're forgetting who the posters here are. This isn't a debate class at a Buddhist university.

- - -
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:12 am
The kernel of truth might be: "I spoke in a manner which came across as personal, but I did not intend to speak about your person." Or the kernel of truth might be: "I intended to speak about your person, because I intend to comment about your state of mind." But we should acknowledge the kernel of truth and take personal responsibility for it.
Some people just want to get personal.

Those who want an impersonal discussion, (can) take a debate class at a university. Or they can go to Prosblogion or a similar Buddhist site (if there is one). Those who don't want things to be so impersonal, or who believe that the way to discuss the Dhamma (or anything relevant) can only be done personally, will have a different approach to communication.

Like I said earlier, there are topics, especially in the field of morality and religion, which in their nature are such that the speaker vouches with their person for their veracity, and expects the same from others.

This approach is supported by instructions In the suttas that instruct how to test and evaluate a monk before opening up to him and in the suttas that instruct to choose one's friends wisely.

- - -
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:23 am
It is a reminder that we can do better. (All of us.)
People have vastly different ideas about what it means "to do better."


Edited for misplaced edit.
Last edited by binocular on Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:12 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:23 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:02 am
That's funny, you were awfully insistent that any discussion and critique of Islam and Mohammad should be stopped.
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
Yes, I still am insistent the discussion and critique should be much more measured. You should rein in the hate speech about other faiths, especially in light of the persecution of Rohingya Muslims at the hands of self-identified Buddhists. But again, that is your business, and your kamma to perform.
Ah, so in fact you are advocating censorship and controls, despite your "Nobody has advocated censorship. I don't know where you got that from" protests. Glad we cleared that up.
Censorship is a government function. This is a private website. Censorship is not even an applicable concept. You have TOS, and you can decide the face of Buddhism which you choose to present here. So far, it has included disparagement of other faiths, and disparagement of individuals with whom you disagree.
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
I does not feel as though you have respected the autonomy of others to speak messages with which you personally disagree.
That's interesting.... I don't recall censoring or starting up a rally cry for the censorship of those with whom I personally disagree. I don't recall starting up a poll trying to demonize, tar, and feather those whose speech upset me. I don't remember reporting a whole swathe of posts that violated my personal feelings, but did not violate the Terms of Service.
No, but bulling behavior is chilling. You are the administrator. You hijacked this thread for the purpose of making personalized comments about me. Also, please stop mischaracterizing my reporting. I have reported a grand total of 6 posts, as follows: (1) when Sam Vara went off the rails on the locked topic and got offensively personal; (2) at Mike's instructions as I understood them, and (3-6) various posts which showed open contempt for other traditions, in violation of TOS as I understand it. That is all.
Oh, that's right, that was you, wasn't it? :)
I had assumed private reporting was confidential, and PMs were confidential. I have come to understand this is not the case, and if someone makes a report, they may be subject to retaliation by DW admin.
Don't think your double-standards and hypocrisy will get you very far with me, mate.
More personalized comments.
Metta,
When you use that word, I hope you use it with sincerity, not sarcastically.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:17 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:28 am
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:01 am
It is not meant to be workable for the forum. It is meant to be workable for oneself. In other words, when one makes a personalized comment, playing the person rather than the ball, one can anticipate unexpected responses. In which case one can take personal responsibility for the words spoken. As the poll shows, different people have different ideas of what comments might reasonably be taken personally.
I didn't say "workable for the forum". I said "workable on the forum".
Same meaning.
I entirely agree that when one makes a personalised comment, playing the person, etc., one can anticipate unexpected responses. But as I didn't make a personalised comment, your point does not apply.
Yes you did. You repeatedly discussed "your confusion" and alleged "hysterical" comments. See poll results above. These terms could reasonably be taken personally.
Your entire point is based upon simply choosing your particular interpretation against the good advice of others.
No it is not. I created a Topic about Right Speech. You and others have chosen to play the person, not the ball. I invite you to play the ball. I know you probably will not.
The poll does not show that anyone would take the comment that I made personally.
But a reasonable person might. You never know, when you start talking to someone about their supposed confusion.
The poll does not ask whether people would take a particular statement personally, having been told by the person who made it that it was not personal. I also note that the poll does not ask whether, having taken a particular interpretation, one should repeatedly denounce the author despite their remonstration that the interpretation is wrong. Nor does the poll ask whether people think that it is possible to misinterpret someone's utterance.


Unsupported repetition. Who allows you to judge with objectivity and finality whether comments are personal? The point is that it was a comment that you chose to interpret as being personal. Despite reassurances that it was not, and that you did not need to. And yet you maintain that you take responsibility for your actions. Why do you not take responsibility for interpreting the words of others? That interpretation is a mental act which is free in that you could have done otherwise, you could have revised that interpretation. It could have been a misinterpretation. It is this insistence on your own self-righteousness that makes your holier-than-thou routine so risible.
More personalized comments.

Please play the ball, not the person. But you can do whatever you want. It's your kamma to perform.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 2978
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by Goofaholix » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:54 pm

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:23 am
When we do something which has an unintended consequence, we all (myself included) can recognize the kernel of truth regarding our role in the situation or conflict which has arisen conditioned by our words/actions.
That's right, each time we hit the reply button we have the choice to escalate or de-escalate. De-escalating is not that hard it just takes a bit of objectivity, a bit of tolerance, and impersonal language in the reply.

I haven't seen the posts that started this but I believe you, can you take responsibility for each time you had the opportunity to de-escalate and chose to escalate?
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:51 pm

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:12 am
When we make a personalized comment, we run the risk of creating conflict.
Conflict arises when there are competing interests. Which is how people who have less or more harmonized interests don't consider themselves to be in conflict with eachother, even though they make plenty of personalized comments. In contrast, no amount of proper speech can harmonize people who have competing interests, and so these people will be in conflict with eachother.

And a conflict is only worth attempts to solve it if one wishes to have a relationship with the other person.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 4406
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by SDC » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:33 pm

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:17 pm
...
Do you know what makes your efforts typical? That you, like so many others, assume public activism will affect change. All it does is break down the community. Everything you are doing here is a carbon copy of someone else's previous efforts to take the forum in one direction or another. Truth is, there is no right thing to say to directly and immediately affect the change you claim to represent. Many right things need to be said repeatedly in order to create the appropriate context which can then help generate enough momentum to allow for the necessary density to be there in your words so that they won't go to waste. And not all of those words must be in reference to that proposed change. Either way, you skipped over that step.

Perhaps you have the whole history of the forum at your disposal and figured that was enough, but I assure you it isn't. Because even if you're a former member I doubt enough of your fellow members know enough about you to trust in what you are claiming to stand behind.

You're an echo for what you despise and you're maintaining one another's prominence. You have me perplexed in same way your predecessors did. Now what? If people like you only knew the influence regular members have had working in good faith behind the scenes you would realize why the public displays such as this accomplish very little in comparison.

I've been tending to some affairs off the forum so please do not offended if I don't return frequently to this discussion.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Disciple and 14 guests