Clear comprehension vs heedfulness

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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befriend
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Clear comprehension vs heedfulness

Post by befriend » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:11 pm

What's the difference between clear comprehension and heedfulness?
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

paul
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Re: Clear comprehension vs heedfulness

Post by paul » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:32 am

Sampajanna (clear comprehension) is a part of mindfulness which deals with knowing present events, while part of sati's job is to put those events into a remembered dhamma context. The third part of mindfulness atappa (ardency) is the desire to avoid what is unbenefical, or the application of right effort. Heedfulness (appamada) is a more general term, like the basic motivation: zeal, earnestness, diligence, convey the meaning more accurately.

ToVincent
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Re: Clear comprehension vs heedfulness

Post by ToVincent » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:35 pm

Hi Paul,
paul wrote: Sampajanna (clear comprehension) is a part of mindfulness which deals with knowing present events, while part of sati's job is to put those events into a remembered dhamma context.
Perfect definition Paul. Thanks.
I might just reformulate it as follows:
Sampajanna (clear comprehension) is a part of "mindfulness" which deals with knowing (discerning/distinguishing/discriminating) present events - while sati(mā) is a part of "mindfulness", that puts those events into a remembered dhamma context.
I just love the way you formulated sati as: "puts those events into a remembered dhamma context". Perfectly said. Absolutely perfect definition.

Also, I love how you split "mindfulness" in several parts - and make the nom. sg. sati(mā), just a part of it. Even if Sati has to be called the "all" of these processes, in the question of SN 47.2 below (what is mindfulness (sati)? - Sati is indeed sati(mā) + the rest.

Your definition should be the definite landmark of what Sati, as a whole (and as a part), is all about.
Again, thanks to formulate it so nicely.
paul wrote:The third part of mindfulness atappa (ardency) is the desire to avoid what is unbenefical, or the application of right effort.

Ātāpi in ātāpīsampajāno:

The corresponding BSk. आतापिन् ātāpin = zealous - only appears in the late Lalitavistara Mahayana Sūtra.
I hardly see how it this "zeal" (ardency,) can be applied to Buddha's time.
Therefore, our best shot again is to rely on the Pali and Sanskrit root √ tap
The Sanskrit √ तप् tap has kept a pre & post Buddha general meaning of "tormenting one's self (like undergoing self-mortification) - to cause oneself pain , trouble , distress - to suffer or feel pain.

Ātāpa [ā + tāpa fr.tap; cp.tāpeti] glow, heat; fig.ardour, keen endeavour, or perhaps better “torturing, mortification".
Tāpeti [Sk.tāpayati - Caus.to tapati] to burn out, scorch, torment.
Tappati [Sk. tapyate, Pass. of tapati] to burn, to be tormented.
Sk. tapati { pr. ac. sg.} of √ tap

Therefore, the meaning of ātāpī seems to be "not tormented" (e.g. by self-mortification) - not distressed. In other words, not in excessive tapas.
paul wrote:Heedfulness (appamada) is a more general term, like the basic motivation: zeal, earnestness, diligence, convey the meaning more accurately.
Appamada comes from pamaddati [pa+mṛd]: to crush down, overcome, defeat.
The Sanskrit √ मृद् mṛd has kept the same meaning from the Śrutas to the Mahabharata = trample down.
Appamada seems to mean "not letting oneself be defeated (trampled down)" - I suppose by what is not self).

Therefore, the SN 47.2 extract can be translated as such:
“And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu mindful? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu fetches distinctively (viharati) and contemplates the xxx in the xxx, not letting himself to be defeated (by the process - see simile of the city sn35.245 >> not appropriating the phenomena), not distressed (by too much self-mortification,) clearly discerning (that xxx), mindful (putting this event into a remembered dhamma context), having removed the brooding of mischief and evil mind (mano) in regard to the world.
Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sato hoti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu xxxe xxxānupassī viharati ātāpīsampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.


As far as domanassa is concerned, I would opt for the "having bad in mind" definition https://justpaste.it/18303 - [note: while in Somanassa-Domanassa (fourth jhana), I would opt for the "difficult definition.

As far as abhijjhā is concerned:
Abhijjhā [fr. abhi + dhyā (jhāyati),cp. Sk. abhidhyāna]
अभभधध्यस्त्यान abhidhyāna [ abhi-dhyāna ] n.
- desiring , longing for (post Buddhist)
धध्यस्त्यान dhyāna n.
- thought , reflection ChUp. MBh.
धध्यस्त्या dhyā [ dhyāta ] , [ dhyāna ] see under √ [ dhyai ].
√ धध्यस्त्यै dhyai
- to brood mischief against TS.


And also the SN 47.15 extract:
“Venerable sir, it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, withdrawn (not distracted (alienated) [by the "external"]), not letting myself be defeated (trampled down [by the phenomena]), not distressed (by excessive tapas), and resolute (incited - प्रहित prahita).”
“sādhu me, bhante, bhagavā saṅkhittena dhammaṃ desetu, yamahaṃ bhagavato dhammaṃ sutvā eko vūpakaṭṭho appamatto ātāpī pahitatto vihareyyan”ti.


Vūpakaṭṭho - from vavakassati,[v+ava+kṛṣ] to be drawn away,to be distracted or alienated.

Mudita
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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We are all possessed - more or less.
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And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
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https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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