Spanking Children in Buddhism

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Santi253
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:10 am

Aloka wrote: I 'm wondering ...why is all of this so important to you, Santi253 ?
There is a difference between spanking and child abuse, and parents should know the difference so it doesn't cross the line.
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binocular
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:17 am

Santi253 wrote:There is a difference between spanking and child abuse, and parents should know the difference so it doesn't cross the line.
And as John Locke, among some more prominent defenders of corporal punishment make clear, any kind of corporal punishment can hope to have the desired effect to discipline the child only if the punisher is calm and composed when punishing; and that if the parent is angry when punishing the child, this will have the exact opposite effect as desired.

The only problem is that very few people are able not to be angry when punishing their children, similar with teachers at schools.


For Locke's points:
http://www.bartleby.com/37/1/5.html

binocular
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:05 am

Circle5 wrote:It's a hard art to manage kids without beating them
Many people hate children.
Not just a few parents hate their children and wish they would never exist. And they started hating them long before the children were even born, so it's not the child's fault their parents don't want them.

Children notice that they aren't really wanted, and it is this that they are reacting to, it's because of this that they are unruly. I don't blame them. Expecting children to just be okay with their parents and their teachers being ambivalent to them is insane, no matter how common those expectations are.

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Circle5 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:13 am

Even without hatred, its really difficult. I've had very few teacher capable of that. And imagine how things go in primary school. Maybe kids make some noise. You keep telling them to stop but they don't. You start shouting at them, you threathen them etc. to make them stay quiet. And the little jakass just doesn't give a damn. What can you do in this situation ?

The only way to prevent such a thing is to have a very strong authority but this is very very difficult to achieve. Very few teachers manage to achieve such authority that allows them to manage the kids without beating them. If even teachers after a lifetime of managing kids find it so difficult to achieve such a state, it's certainly much more difficult for a first time parent.

I've had a teacher in middle school who was so bad at managing the class that we just did whatever we wanted. Running around the class, entering and leaving whenever we wanted, shouting like on a stadium, beating each other up etc. Total chaos. He had 3 nervous breakdowns that got her to the hospital in my 4 years of middleschool, 2 of them because of my class. In 8th grade she decided to let us just not come to the class and go play football cause she just couldn't take it anymore. Managing kids is a difficult art.

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Aloka
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Aloka » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:15 am

Santi253 wrote:There is a difference between spanking and child abuse, and parents should know the difference so it doesn't cross the line.
So you're appointing youself as a spokesman here for parents to use physical punishment on their children ? I find that quite shocking.

Corporal punishment was quite rightly banned in government funded state schools in England in 1986 and in private schools in 1998.

Spanking, caning or beating children either by their parents or their teachers is a barbaric and humiliating practice which causes physical and mental pain and can result in long-term resentment towards the person committing the act.

I no longer want to take part in this topic, I'm astonished that there are people here who are actually supporting physical punishments being used on children.

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Skilled parents never spank their children
:goodpost:
binocular wrote:. Expecting children to just be okay with their parents and their teachers being ambivalent to them is insane, no matter how common those expectations are.
:goodpost:
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

Santi253
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:33 am

Aloka wrote: So you're appointing youself as a spokesman here for parents to use physical punishment on their children ?
No, I would never make such a claim. Parents need to make their own decisions, provided that it is within the law.
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Aloka
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Aloka » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:54 am

Santi253 wrote: Parents need to make their own decisions, provided that it is within the law.
I can only hope with all my heart that you'll never use physical punishment on your own young children.

Have a good day :anjali:

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:56 am

Circle5 wrote:Even without hatred, its really difficult.
But not impossible. Not just anyone can be a teacher.
And imagine how things go in primary school. Maybe kids make some noise. You keep telling them to stop but they don't. You start shouting at them, you threathen them etc. to make them stay quiet. And the little jakass just doesn't give a damn. What can you do in this situation ?
Sure, it's convenient to blame the children. Which is just passing the buck to the next generation to solve the problem that this one didn't (nor the ones before). Children raised that way will give birth to children who will be causing the same problems, and so the cycle continues.

Children are being treated like cattle, they are taught that life is a struggle for survival -- and yet it is expected of them to behave themselves. That just doesn't work.
The only way to prevent such a thing is to have a very strong authority but this is very very difficult to achieve. Very few teachers manage to achieve such authority that allows them to manage the kids without beating them. If even teachers after a lifetime of managing kids find it so difficult to achieve such a state, it's certainly much more difficult for a first time parent.
Which is why people should really think long and hard whether they can and should have children to begin with.
I've had a teacher in middle school who was so bad at managing the class that we just did whatever we wanted. Running around the class, entering and leaving whenever we wanted, shouting like on a stadium, beating each other up etc. Total chaos. He had 3 nervous breakdowns that got her to the hospital in my 4 years of middleschool, 2 of them because of my class. In 8th grade she decided to let us just not come to the class and go play football cause she just couldn't take it anymore. Managing kids is a difficult art.
As far as I have seen, the teachers that had the most problems with maintaining discipline in class were also those who yelled the most and beat the most.
On the other hand, I had a teacher in whose class we almost always behaved ourselves and in four years of highschool, she raised her voice maybe altogether five times (she taught language and literature, so we had classes with her every day). She was in her fifties; she had a poker face. She was never particularly nice. But she remembered all of our names within the first two hours. She had a very old-fashioned way of teaching (lots of dictation and reading together). She mostly just sat at her spot, barely every wrote anything on the chalkboard, didn't use fancy technical equipment. I think that nowadays, they would fire such a teacher. But in hindsight, she was one of my favorite teachers and taught a lot. I think she was extremely effective, far more than many other teachers who clearly try very hard and invest a lot of effort.

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:03 pm

In case anyone can't tell, I put more stock in the traditional practices of Asian cultures than would the typical American. How can we follow an Asian religion if we think Asian cultures are inferior?
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:00 pm

Santi253 wrote:In case anyone can't tell, I put more stock in the traditional practices of Asian cultures than would the typical American. How can we follow an Asian religion if we think Asian cultures are inferior?
Because we're interested in the culture of the Noble Ones, not in Thai culture, or Burmese culture, or Laotian culture, or Sinhalese culture, or whichever Asian culture there is in a country or part of a country that has been traditionally called "Buddhist."
And Buddhism is an Asian religion only in a superficial theoretical religiological sense.

When you come to practice the Dhamma, there are a lot of times when you experience culture shock. It's not a question of going from a Western culture to an Asian culture. It's going from a culture of ordinary people with defilements — Asian or Western — to the culture of the Noble Ones. Their culture involves a radically different set of values, a different etiquette, a different purpose.

The culture of ordinary people — no matter where in the world — is just to keep families going, to keep the human race surviving, to keep people clothed and fed, to try to sort out a balance among different peoples' greed, anger, and delusion in such a way that things are relatively peaceful. But this always takes place within the context of what's possible in a world where when you have gain, loss; status, loss of status; praise, criticism; pleasure, pain. These things all come in pairs, so you don't get anything that's totally whole.

The purpose of the customs of the Noble Ones, however, is to lead to something that, as Luang Pu Dune once said, is one single thing all the way through. There's no concern about keeping the human race going or keeping your appetites going, but there is a focused concern on finding a true happiness. That one point, that one focus, trumps everything else. And it affects everything within the culture — from the way we walk, the way we talk, what we wear, what we eat, the kind of shelter we look for, the medicine we use, everything from the very basics all the way up to how we comprehend our own minds.
/.../
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#culture
And:

The Customs of the Noble Ones

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Aloka
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Aloka » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:26 pm

Santi253 wrote:In case anyone can't tell, I put more stock in the traditional practices of Asian cultures than would the typical American. How can we follow an Asian religion if we think Asian cultures are inferior?
Cultural traditions, superstitions and practices don't always have any connection to the teachings of the historical Buddha. One example of many in Tibetan Buddhism, being the practice of polyandry in Tibet, which was forbidden after the Chinese took over Tibet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry_in_Tibet

Would you insist your wife had several husbands if you followed Tibetan Buddhism ?

There's a teaching that the Buddha gave to his son Rahula, which you might like to contemplate in connection with what appears to be your personal interest in physical punishments for children.

"Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do.

"While you are doing a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it.

"Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: ''This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction,to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:56 am

Here is something that might be interesting:
Interviewing hundreds of juvenile offenders and their families, Detective Surgenor discovered that the majority of violent juvenile offenders come from homes where there is no corporal punishment, or spanking.
https://books.google.com/books/about/No ... ENAAAACAAJ
The Associated Press
BEREA, Ohio — A police detective thinks that if more parents spanked their children there would be less juvenile crime.

Robert Surgenor has published a book saying that proper child-raising requires parents to spank children who misbehave, inflicting pain without injury.

He says children today don't respect their parents because they don't fear them. Punishments such as time-outs and grounding are fine, but when those don't work, hearing a parent pull off a belt is effective, Mr. Surgenor said.

“Juvenile crime is exploding,” he told the Cleveland Plain Dealer. He cited FBI statistics that show domestic violence offenses committed by children increased 348 percent between 1983 and 1997 — more than double the rate of increase for adults...

Mr. Surgenor's eldest son, Robert Jr. says he grew up knowing his father would swat him if he didn't behave. Mr. Surgenor has five children, ages 16 to 26.

“He taught me respect,” said 26-year-old Robert Surgenor Jr., a Cuyahoga County sheriff's deputy. “I think he made me a better person.”
http://enquirer.com/editions/2000/08/13 ... tives.html
I would never spank a child with a belt or a strap, and I am careful to stay within the law.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:19 pm

I live in an apartment complex full of the worst parents I've ever seen. I just saw a meth addict pushing a baby stroller, and her ten-year-old son was on meth too. I couldn't believe it. As someone who has worked with meth addicts at a counseling center, I know what they look like and how they act. It's damn sure that I'm a better parent than these folks.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:56 pm

Santi253 wrote:I live in an apartment complex full of the worst parents I've ever seen. I just saw a meth addict pushing a baby stroller, and her ten-year-old son was on meth too. I couldn't believe it. As someone who has worked with meth addicts at a counseling center, I know what they look like and how they act. It's damn sure that I'm a better parent than these folks.
As a recovered addict, I would not make this stuff up. My Lord. These are the kids my kids have to go to school with???
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by SDC » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:32 pm

Santi253 wrote:I would never spank a child with a belt or a strap, and I am careful to stay within the law.
So as long as you stay within the law it's all good?

Yes, I have two. A one year old and a three year old. I haven't spanked either one. And no, I don't use ridiculous, lame parenting tactics like timeout or counting. I out-think my children by working around their developing brains and use as much humor as possible to distract them. Yes, I do lose it, I do yell, loud, and have occasionally had to quickly pick up a misbehaving child, but never had the need to hit them. I am with them at least 2 hours alone everyday after being at work for eight hours. And you know what? They behave. Well, the three year does (for the most part, she is three); the one year old can't talk yet and isn't very mobile yet so doesn't get into much trouble.

I was avoiding entering this thread because I think it is incredibly rude to criticize what another parent does, but your justification above is very weak. Yeah, perhaps, relatively speaking, you are one of the better parents in the difficult community you are a part of, but that is hardly an "excuse" or a reason - which is what you are making it out to be. Do whatever you want to do, I am no position to tell you to change. What you do is your business, but both your attempts to rationalize and justify it sounds more like you are still trying to convince yourself that you are doing the right thing as opposed to promoting it.

I have Chinese relations, from China, so I know a lot about Asian parenting methods, but keep in mind that you aren't in Asia and if your children don't have other children around (friends) to "make it normal" for them, it won't be normal for them.

I'll stop being a judgmental prick now.

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:25 am

SDC wrote:Yes, I do lose it, I do yell, loud, and have occasionally had to quickly pick up a misbehaving child, but never had the need to hit them.
For the first two years of being a parent, we didn't spank at all, since we were philosophically opposed to it, and it created an extremely misbehaving child. We didn't notice a change in this behavior until we incorporated spanking.

I don't think that parenting is one-size-fits all, and as long as I am within the law, I don't need outside justification for spanking.
Santi253 wrote:
Interviewing hundreds of juvenile offenders and their families, Detective Surgenor discovered that the majority of violent juvenile offenders come from homes where there is no corporal punishment, or spanking.
https://books.google.com/books/about/No ... ENAAAACAAJ
I think that spanking as a first resort is a bad thing, and so is being a permissive parent. We've tried to find some sort of middleground.
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Aloka
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Aloka » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:53 am

santi253I wrote: as long as I am within the law, I don't need outside justification for spanking.
Yet you created a 3 page thread on a Buddhist forum to justify your opinion on this.

All that I can say is that if I was teaching your three girls in school, I'd be keeping a close look out for signs of the mental abuse which can accompany the physical abuse of spanking, both of which can affect childrens later outlook on life and their communications with others.

As you have already mentioned somewhere that you are a recovering addict, please take care that disciplining your girls doesn't also become another form of addiction. I seriously recommend that you get some parenting counselling.

:anjali:
.
Last edited by Aloka on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Santi253
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:48 am

Aloka wrote: Yet you created a 3 page thread on a Buddhist forum to justify your opinion on this.
I created this thread to defend people in traditional Asian cultures from Western prejudice and and elitism.
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binocular
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:33 am

Santi253 wrote:For the first two years of being a parent, we didn't spank at all, since we were philosophically opposed to it, and it created an extremely misbehaving child. We didn't notice a change in this behavior until we incorporated spanking.
Correlation does not imply causation.

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:39 am

SDC wrote:a misbehaving child
What is that even, a "misbehaving child"?

Children behave in line with the expectations of the parents, or they don't. But to automatically elevate the expectations of the parents to the level of Objective Morality And The Greatest Good, so that the child's failure to behave in line with those expectations could rightly be called "misbehaving" ...

Just because one person is older, bigger, stronger, richer than the other person, doesn't automatically mean that they are also the absolute moral and cognitive authority over the other person.

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