Spanking Children in Buddhism

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
binocular
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:09 am

Santi253 wrote:Does it harm children for them to be in time-out with their hands above their head?
What do you think?
Can you put yourself in the shoes of such a child?

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:36 am

binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:Does it harm children for them to be in time-out with their hands above their head?
What do you think?
Can you put yourself in the shoes of such a child?
Please tell me what forms of discipline that you think are effective. Is putting children in time-out something that you are against in all circumstances or is it the hands above the head part of it?
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:53 am

Santi253 wrote:Please tell me what forms of discipline that you think are effective.
That depends entirely on what the parents want from their child (and why they had the child to begin with).
Effectiveness can only bea assessed in regard to a particular goal.
Is putting children in time-out something that you are against in all circumstances or is it the hands above the head part of it?
I'm not in particular against or for anything, because I think it all depends on what the parents want from their child.

Depending on that goal, some pedagogical approaches will be effective while others won't.

If, for example, the parents want to raise a child that will be a partner in a big law firm by the age of 30, they will need to apply different strategies than parents who want their child to first and foremost be happy in life.

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:44 am

I would guess that we are much less strict than many Buddhist parents. In Singapore, South Korea, etc., it's common to spank your children with a cane, hanger, feather duster, etc., for not getting the right grade on a test at school. I could never imagine punishing my children for a grade at school, unless they were to fail a class for the entire semester.
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:50 am

Santi253 wrote:I would guess that we are much less strict than many Buddhist parents.
Why are you calling them "Buddhist"? What, specifically, is Buddhist about them, other than being born and raised in a country that is traditionally considered "Buddhist"?

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:52 am

binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:I would guess that we are much less strict than many Buddhist parents.
Why are you calling them "Buddhist"? What, specifically, is Buddhist about them, other than being born and raised in a country that is traditionally considered "Buddhist"?
As parents, we follow the secular law of the United States, while practicing a much less strict form of discipline than what's common in many traditionally Buddhist countries.
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:54 am

I asked you:

Why are you calling them "Buddhist"?
What, specifically, is Buddhist about them, other than being born and raised in a country that is traditionally considered "Buddhist"?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:09 am

One will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Skilled parents never spank their children. The Buddha prescribed various punishments for monks who broke the rules, but none of them involve physical beatings, locking up, or withdrawing of food. A monk who has committed a serious offence such as masturbation must request a period of probation and rehabilitation from the Sangha. This involves temporary ostracism, and public confession of his offences. During the probationary period he must not sleep or eat together with other monks.

Making a child stand with the hands up is a cruel punishment that inflicts pain. Making a child stand in the corner wearing a dunce cap (like they used to do long ago) is humiliating, but it is not painful. Beating with canes or leather straps has rightly been prohibited in schools, and should not be used in homes either.

The UK law allows spanking or smacking. It is called "reasonable chastisement."

My personal opinion is that the current law is about right. Smacking your child is not the same as slapping your wife or husband, and not the same as assaulting another adult or someone else's child either.

The law is an ass and deserves to be spanked. Criminalising parents for smacking or spanking their own children is unreasonable. There should be actual bodily harm or psychological trauma to justify charges of child abuse.
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:47 am

binocular wrote:I asked you:

Why are you calling them "Buddhist"?
What, specifically, is Buddhist about them, other than being born and raised in a country that is traditionally considered "Buddhist"?
If someone claims to be Buddhist, I don't usually question whether they are Buddhist or not.
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:50 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Skilled parents never spank their children.
Someone who's never had children might not be accurately making that conclusion. If I could contact a Buddhist parenting organization located in an Asian country, that would be really great.
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:02 am

Santi253 wrote:Someone who's never had children might not be accurately making that conclusion. If I could contact a Buddhist parenting organization located in an Asian country, that would be really great.
Someone who had twenty children might not draw an accurate conclusion either. I meet a lot of parents, and of course I had parents of my own.
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:05 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Santi253 wrote:Someone who's never had children might not be accurately making that conclusion. If I could contact a Buddhist parenting organization located in an Asian country, that would be really great.
Someone who had twenty children might not draw an accurate conclusion either. I meet a lot of parents, and of course I had parents of my own.
I'm asking if you could please connect me with a Buddhist parenting organization.
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:20 pm

Santi253 wrote:If someone claims to be Buddhist, I don't usually question whether they are Buddhist or not.
Do you also assume that such a person is also representative of Buddhism?

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Aloka » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:44 pm

Santi253 wrote:I would guess that we are much less strict than many Buddhist parents. In Singapore, South Korea, etc., it's common to spank your children with a cane, hanger, feather duster, etc., for not getting the right grade on a test at school. I could never imagine punishing my children for a grade at school, unless they were to fail a class for the entire semester.
Have you actually lived in those countries and seen for yourself how parents treat their children?
Santi253 wrote:As parents, we follow the secular law of the United States, while practicing a much less strict form of discipline than what's common in many traditionally Buddhist countries
Again, how do you know this for sure? Are you just using some random statistics to form your opinions?

The very idea that the people in "many traditional Buddhist countries" all use corporal punishment on their children is tenuous to say the least.

Additionally, as a (non- USA) westerner who is a qualified schoolteacher -which includes counselling troubled teenagers (some of then physically and/or mentally abused and/or neglected by their parents), I 'm wondering ...why is all of this so important to you, Santi253 ?

:anjali:

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:21 pm

Have you actually lived in those countries and seen for yourself how parents treat their children?
Again, how do you know this for sure? Are you just using some random statistics to form your opinions?
What he is saying is true. It's normal in asia. This girl in the video apparently even got hanged upside down from a a tree
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUClsuYGN8U


But western countries can blow this thing out of proportion. For example there was a famous case in my country about the Bodnariu Family: http://bodnariufamily.org/
They were beating their kids a little and rising them up to be christians just like any random romanian family does. And a teacher or somebody from school spoke with them about how things go home and they found out about this. And then the state confiscated their 5 children and refused to give them back even after huge protests by romanians in many european cities. The child protection service operates outside the judicial system and has supreme power over any kids. The kids were taken and kept for years in foster homes without any evidence against their parents, against the children will and without any form of a trial. It's like kids are property of the child department and child protection officers have dictatorial powers, having the right to kidnap kids whenever they want based on their own will, with no rules to stop them and no responsability for what they do. Many such cases have happened and for many years people have been asking for reform.

Obsession with child protection can lead to terrible policies such as those in Norway, leaving a huge door open for religious discrimination. Note: The child department can make them permament wardens of the state or give them for adoption with no trial whatsoever. They are totally independent of the justice system.
Last edited by Circle5 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Aloka » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:41 pm

Circle5 wrote:What he is saying is true. It's normal in asia. This girl in the video apparently even got hanged upside down from a a tree
The girl in the video is talking about Chinese parents. I was under the impression that Santi253 was talking about Buddhist countries. China isn't a Buddhist country.

Have you been out of Romania to visit every Buddhist country in Asia and see what's "normal" yourself?


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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:05 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_ ... nd_culture - notice Thailand is also listed as such a country

In most countries, including mine, it's considered beneficial, despite scientific findings suggesting the opposite.

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:18 pm

The Bodnariu Family are now reunited with their children.

Such cases are not unique to Norway, although that has, I believe, a strict "No spanking" policy. Here in the UK, children sometimes get taken away without due cause, but it is much more common to hear cases of children being killed when they should have been taken away much sooner.
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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by binocular » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:25 pm

Circle5 wrote:In most countries, including mine, it's considered beneficial, despite scientific findings suggesting the opposite.
I think that whether beating children turns out beneficial or not depends, among some other things, also on whether other parents in that society/community beat their children.

I wasn't beaten at home, but the teachers in kindergarten and at school beat us. Other children were beaten at home. For them, also being beaten at school was nothing new, and so I think they coped with it much better than I did. I still remember the kindergarten nurse who beat us. I was baffled over what was happening, and I couldn't understand why she beat us. This was even more so because the nurse we had before was apparently able to maintain discipline in the kindergarten without yelling and beating. But then she went on maternity leave, and we got that new nurse that beat us.

To me, the way those teachers beat us was simply a perverse personal assault -- a bigger, much stronger person assaulting a much weaker and much smaller one, whereby the smaller one isn't even supposed to fight back or flee.

I suppose I would see the whole matter differently if I, like the other children, would be beaten by my parents at home, and then I wouldn't feel so bewildered and powerless about it.

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Re: Spanking Children in Buddhism

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:22 pm

To me, the way those teachers beat us was simply a perverse personal assault -- a bigger, much stronger person assaulting a much weaker and much smaller one, whereby the smaller one isn't even supposed to fight back or flee.
I'm not trying to say this is a proper or beneficial way to deal with kids, but it has more logic to it than it first looks like. I've wrote on previous page about extremelly thuff teachers we have over here and how it's like a national sport. When we were kids, we really respected these thuff teachers. And I mean in a real, honest way. Only in highschool did we got to the level where this looked strange. Until then, such a teacher would be honestly respected.

Kids are like apes. That is their level of understanding. They already understand the "don't mess with the bigger ape" rule and perfectly accept it. If a teacher asks you to go out of the classroom and do a 1-on-1 with him, that' something that kids will respect. Ideas like "it's unfair for this bigger guy to do a 1-on-1 with us cause we're kids" do not come up to ones mind. On the contrary, ideas like "look, this guys is the bigger ape in the room and he isn't a loser, he knows he's the bigger ape and is not taking any BS from smaller apes like us" will come to the kid mind. Like any animal, kids already accept the "if someone is the bigger ape, he has the right to do what he wants because of that. That's the whole point of being the bigger ape". That's why in the example I gave with that 1-on-1 with a kid, the kid only complained about the teacher using a club. When the teacher accepted to put the club down and proposed to do a 1-on-1, the kid had no problem.

This is why we see this kind of approach used by police in the USA. Police in the USA are infamous for using this ape-level of approach probably because guns are available and you can not take any risks. You can't talk nicely with people and be like a normal human because maybe one of them only understands ape level of morality. So you need to go there in full force and make clear who has the upper hand in that very moment cause maybe the guy is incapable of complex and long-term thinking and maybe he also has a gun. Police in other countries don't use this brute force approach and in some countries they don't even have guns.

Kids might be humans in the becoming but for the moment they are apes. Morality develops gradually through life. Before adolescence the kid is only capable of stage 1 and 2 thinking, only then stage 3 and 4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_ ... ife_Spanhe
first stage is called obedience and punishment orientation. And this stage is governed by the concept of having rules, laws, and things that one must follow. In children there is a set of rules set down by their authority figures, often being their parents. At this stage of moral development, morality is defined by these rules and laws that they think are set in stone and can never change. To a child, these rules are ones that can never be wrong and that define good and bad and show the difference between them. Later on however, these rules become more like guidelines and can change based on the situation they are presented in. Another aspect of these rules is the concept of punishment and reinforcement and that’s how children realize what is considered morally okay or not.

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