Legality and morality

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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ihrjordan
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Legality and morality

Post by ihrjordan »

Hello. I'm curious as to the relationship between buddhist morality and laws which ones government has enacted.

To gI've a few examples and to get the discussion rolling; some may interprete sex with a prostitute in a place in which it is illegal to be a breach of the third precept; likewise "copyright infringement" and piracy could be interpreted to be a breach of the second precept on the basis that it is an illegal act.

On the other hand, you have countries in which practicing the buddhist religion or even owning dharmic texts is punishable by law (north korea for example)

should we extend the arguments against piracy and prostitution on the merits that they are illegal and thus immoral to matters which are actually wholesome as far as mental states are concerned?

Abortion is legal in a lot of places and yet it breaches the first precept. It's legal to shoot cats in new Zealand (?). How are we to extend the logic used with prostitution and copyright infringement to the more subtle cases? Are they even immoral to begin with?

I'm leaning towards a libertarian (live and let live) view myself whereby the law should have very little to do with one's practice of sila but am open to discussion....thanks.
User156079
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by User156079 »

I think immoral acts are all acts that are ultimately bad for your mind. Illegal things are things that are illegal. Sex with a prostitute is both immoral and illegal (in some countries anyway), masturbation is ultimately immoral but legal in most countries afaik.
Last edited by User156079 on Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
santa100
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by santa100 »

Governments' law usually don't contradict Buddhist morality. But since they're man-made and being influenced by regions' specific beliefs, rituals, and practices, there'll be instances where they contradict Buddhist morality. In that case, be creative in one's approach to follow a path away from inflicting suffering on others and on oneself. Ex: if it's a legit. practice in some place to mutilate young girls' genitals, or stone to death women who committed adultery, then it's fairly obvious which path one should follow. Regarding the case of religious persecution, the best approach would to be to...migrate to a more suitable place. But if one's not able to, then one can always practice Buddhism within one's own mind. I'm pretty sure North Korean secret police haven't attained the supernormal power of reading other people's mind to catch you while you're silently practicing the BrahmaViharas, contemplating the 3 characteristics, 4NT, 8FNP, 12DO, etc. One could apply similar creative approach for other scenarios...
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by User156079 »

To answer whether or not sex with a prostitute is immoral. As i see it the question is posed in a flawed way, because if one were to Establish Sati while having sex with a prostitute does that make it moral? Obviously ultimately reality does not work in this way and is momentary, if one was to have sex for money, masturabated or watched a pirated movie mindfully it is mixed kamma. Of course the intention to have the sex is born of craving so it is unwholesome, but that is just a moment, the next moment is not necessarily unwholesome.
The natural question arises which is more important or potent
a) having the sex with a prostitute
b) establishing Sati in the process

I think b is definitely the more potent and stronger because Sati is king in general:)

It is not even about the Sati necessarily while seeing the prostitute and having the sex other wholesome states might arise, like moments of genuine compassion or sympathy etc.

Every next moment of our life is a new opportunity to be mindful.
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mikenz66
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi irhjordan ,
ihrjordan wrote: It's legal to shoot cats in new Zealand (?).
:jumping:
I'm not sure what the point is that you're trying to make here. It is legal to shoot wild animals in most countries (given certain constraints, of course). It's not legal to wander around the neighborhood shooting cats, even in New Zealand!

New Zealand unfortunately has a lot of introduced predators, including cats, stoats, weasels, possums, hedgehogs, dogs, and so on, and you are possibly thinking of calls to eliminate cats, in particular, http://morganfoundation.org.nz/cats/ to protect our native birds.
ihrjordan wrote: How are we to extend the logic used with prostitution and copyright infringement to the more subtle cases? Are they even immoral to begin with?
I don't see any indication in the texts that sex with a prostitute is inherently worse than other consensual sex, unless there are other issues involved, such as trafficking, coercion, deception, and so on. Of course, one could certainly argue that the Buddha did not encourage overindulgence in sexual activity, and encouraged stable families, and so on, but sexual activity, in itself, is not a moral issue.

In New Zealand, prostitution is legal, and regulated (in common with a number of other countries). This has many positive benefits: It is subject to various health and safety constraints, and workers can report issues to the police without fear of prosecution or harassment.

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DNS
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by DNS »

I believe there is a sutta where the Buddha states that it is good to keep the customs of the land where one resides and to follow the laws there. However, in the spirit and letter of the Dhamma, where the 2 come in conflict, I'd go with the Dhamma. For example, in the Antebellum South it would be illegal to help with the Underground Railroad, assisting slaves to freedom, however doing so would be in the spirit of the Dhamma and compassion, going against an unjust law.
ihrjordan wrote: I'm leaning towards a libertarian (live and let live) view myself whereby the law should have very little to do with one's practice of sila but am open to discussion....thanks.
Yes, in general I think that is the best attitude. Let others do as they wish (within reason, not harming others) while we voluntarily keep precepts for our own sake, knowing their benefit, not out of some fear of governmental punishment.
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ihrjordan
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by ihrjordan »

mikenz66 wrote:I'm not sure what the point is that you're trying to make here. It is legal to shoot wild animals in most countries (given certain constraints, of course).
:rofl: I heard it on a podcast recently; I guess it was just at the forefront of my thoughts when looking for an example of a legal yet immoral act. A story came up about a newcomer to new Zealand passing by a man for him to eventually reveal that he's hunting..."I'm looking for a cat" "like a house cat?!" " yeh a big black cat with a bounty on his head, have you seen him?"

It's sounded pretty absurd at the time
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ihrjordan
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by ihrjordan »

David N. Snyder wrote:Yes, in general I think that is the best attitude. Let others do as they wish (within reason, not harming others)
You seemed to give a pretty straightforward answer in first paragraph yet after reading this passage I am again conflicted...if the point is really to do no harm to others or to oneself what is the harm of prostitution and "piracy" even if it were to be illegal? Taking again the example of an "illegal practice of dhamma" in which one might be subject to torture or death...there would be an obvious conflict here yet one could potentially develop the n8p by technically being a criminal.

Or if one were to "pirate" a dhamma related book.... And the dhammapada story of the sotapanna that hired a prostitute for her libidinous husband so she could more fully practice dhamma...
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ihrjordan
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by ihrjordan »

David N. Snyder wrote:.....
And I didnt mean to come off as being contrary it just seems that we hold the same view as far as the relationship between secular and religious law is concerned; so do you think we should do what would benefit our practice even at the risk of governmental punishment or in spite of the risk? 100 MPh to get to an important dhamma event perhaps? :embarassed:
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by DNS »

ihrjordan wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:.....
And I didnt mean to come off as being contrary it just seems that we hold the same view as far as the relationship between secular and religious law is concerned; so do you think we should do what would benefit our practice even at the risk of governmental punishment or in spite of the risk? 100 MPh to get to an important dhamma event perhaps? :embarassed:
No worries, it's a good inquiry. No, I don't think going 100 mph is a good example of wholesome breaking of law. :tongue: It would put yourself and others at risk of serious accident or death.
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bodom
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Re: Legality and morality

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ihrjordan wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:.....
And I didnt mean to come off as being contrary it just seems that we hold the same view as far as the relationship between secular and religious law is concerned; so do you think we should do what would benefit our practice even at the risk of governmental punishment or in spite of the risk? 100 MPh to get to an important dhamma event perhaps? :embarassed:
Better to arrive late than to never arrive at all.

:sage:

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by binocular »

ihrjordan wrote:And I didnt mean to come off as being contrary it just seems that we hold the same view as far as the relationship between secular and religious law is concerned; so do you think we should do what would benefit our practice even at the risk of governmental punishment or in spite of the risk? 100 MPh to get to an important dhamma event perhaps?
Traffic laws, including speed limits, are the way they are because of concerns for safety. They aren't idle impositions made by bureocrats.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Legality and morality

Post by binocular »

ihrjordan wrote:I'm curious as to the relationship between buddhist morality and laws which ones government has enacted.
If your pet is severely ill or injured, and you let it die slowly the natural way instead of taking it to the veterinarian for euthanasia, by the laws of some countries, this is animal abuse.

So what is a Buddhist pet owner to do ...
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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