Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Mothra wrote:I'm so tired of people using the "mental illness is like diabetes or cancer" argument. That analogy is not true.

Mothra, I'm a certified practitioner of traditional and alternative healing arts since over 20 years now.

Before anything manifests on a physical level there was ignorance, disharmony and suffering in the mind and "soul",= "wrong thinking", hate, fear, depression, a lack of harmony, mindfulness, depletion of strenght and abuse of the body and mind with all that entails. And it may stem from previous lives.

It would lead too far to share the complete experience, it's stuff for books.

But ill is ill.

A mentally ill person suffers just as much if not more than a physically ill person.

All illness is suffering, no matter if the level is physical or immaterial, more: Body and mind are mirrors of each other.

To disconnect them is insane, to miss their interconnectedness ignorant.

So, my approach is holistic.

Whether it is a disharmony manifesting in the body or in the mind -it springs from the same root. In the largest meaning of the word it is ignorance of what will cause suffering.

And that root is the game I pursuit.

And it may be a person's karma to be sickly..

If you need suttas, let me know.







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Annabel,
I think this is an interesting sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In it there is a monk, Tissa, who seems to be experiencing what is often called mental illness. The Buddha gives him a teaching on anatta, and says a false path, ignorance, sensual desires, and anger are the obstacles. I'm not suggesting this is absolutely the definite approach to all people diagnosed with mental illness. But I think it is interesting.
I don't think Mothra was saying that mental illnesses don't entail suffering. I think with the article he wanted to question our notion of mental illness, and also wanted to say that the kinds of comparisons being made here between mental things and physical things like cancer or a broken limb aren't really fair. I don't think his suggestion is so much that the mind and body are mutually exclusive. I think the suggestion is more along the lines of, things like anger, aversion, paranoia, awareness, normally considered to be mental--though they may have physical causes or cause things to happen physically--are being linked unfairly with things that are physical--like a bump, an outgrowth of the body, tooth decay, tonsilitus, a fever--even though these things may have mental implications.
What I briefly got into was that these drugs are often promoted as correcting chemical imbalances in the brain. However, I read that no chemical imbalances have been observed. The drugs simply alter the way certain chemicals function, creating new imbalances, which alter behavior and states, etc. Over time they can alter brain structure. I think there are various implications one can draw from these things. I am not suggesting that chemicals can't influence the mind, or the minds changes won't make chemicals do different things.

Hi Altar,

altar wrote: I think this is an interesting sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In it there is a monk, Tissa, who seems to be experiencing what is often called mental illness. ...

Do you really take this description to be "mental illness"? It seems like normal problems-on-the-path to me...

On that occasion Ven. Tissa, the Blessed One's paternal cousin, told a large number of monks, "Friends, it's as if my body is drugged. I've lost my bearings. Things aren't clear to me. My mind keeps being overwhelmed with sloth & torpor. I lead the holy life dissatisfied. I have uncertainty about the teachings."

Metta
Mike

What I think is that if modern doctors heard such symptoms, it is highly probable that they would diagnose a form of mental illness and prescribe drugs for that person.
I also think that if a person came to this forum and described such things, it is probable, at least not unlikely, that it would be suggested they have a mental illness, see a doctor, or consider taking drugs.
[As to what is actually going on... whether what Tissa is going through on a more internal and causal level can be compared to someone who is experiencing similar troubles however not due to rough-goings in the path, this I don't know.]

Hi altar,

Clearly we'll have to agree to disagree. What's in that sutta would, I think, be considered quite normal at an intensive retreat...

And people do come here and say similar things...

Metta
Mike

that sutta does not describe mental illness!

and is this thread just a means to talk about psychiatry?

John Travolta. Nuff said.

Is it customary to be flippant and dismissive when people discuss illicit drug use too? People are quick to condemn that, and vocal about it being a hindrance to Buddhist practice. Yet these powerful psychiatric drugs, if they are prescribed by a doctor, are not considered a relevant topic of discussion? I understand not wanting to be responsible for people in severe, violent crisis, but to the many who suffer from sorrow, fear and isolation... is it not cruel to label them ill and have them put on drugs more powerful than alcohol, nicotine, or marijuana (all of which are summarily condemned here)?

who is labelling them ill?

if someone is ill they need help. if they are having problems they need help. the type of help is going to be different!

edit = doctors are not going to prescribe anti-psychotics for someone feeling (non-clinically) depressed.

I'm sorry, did I seem flippant? John Travolta followed the path that says psychiatric drugs are bad, and attempted to treat his son on a wholistic basis. His son had a seizure and died. Mr. Travolta suffered horribly. I do not think this is flippant.

I'm sorry, did I seem flippant? John Travolta followed the path that says psychiatric drugs are bad, and attempted to treat his son on a wholistic basis. His son had a seizure and died. Mr. Travolta suffered horribly. I do not think this is flippant.

Equally flippant: "Thud". Google the Rosenhan experiment; although dated 1973, there have been equally disturbing replications in the decades since this.

Monkey Mind wrote:

I'm sorry, did I seem flippant? John Travolta followed the path that says psychiatric drugs are bad, and attempted to treat his son on a wholistic basis. His son had a seizure and died. Mr. Travolta suffered horribly. I do not think this is flippant.

Equally flippant: "Thud". Google the Rosenhan experiment; although dated 1973, there have been equally disturbing replications in the decades since this.

The diagnosis problem is real. Note that the other patients had no trouble detecting the fakes. The problems are real too.

altar wrote:Annabel,
I think this is an interesting sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In it there is a monk, Tissa, who seems to be experiencing what is often called mental illness. The Buddha gives him a teaching on anatta, and says a false path, ignorance, sensual desires, and anger are the obstacles. I'm not suggesting this is absolutely the definite approach to all people diagnosed with mental illness. But I think it is interesting.
I don't think Mothra was saying that mental illnesses don't entail suffering. I think with the article he wanted to question our notion of mental illness, and also wanted to say that the kinds of comparisons being made here between mental things and physical things like cancer or a broken limb aren't really fair. I don't think his suggestion is so much that the mind and body are mutually exclusive. I think the suggestion is more along the lines of, things like anger, aversion, paranoia, awareness, normally considered to be mental--though they may have physical causes or cause things to happen physically--are being linked unfairly with things that are physical--like a bump, an outgrowth of the body, tooth decay, tonsilitus, a fever--even though these things may have mental implications.
What I briefly got into was that these drugs are often promoted as correcting chemical imbalances in the brain. However, I read that no chemical imbalances have been observed. The drugs simply alter the way certain chemicals function, creating new imbalances, which alter behavior and states, etc. Over time they can alter brain structure. I think there are various implications one can draw from these things. I am not suggesting that chemicals can't influence the mind, or the minds changes won't make chemicals do different things.

Altar,

I wish members wouldn't assume what another member meant and attempt to reply for them,
even if the assumption is right, is it ultimately helpful to spoon feed somebody a reply so he doesn't have to think himself? ...

the kinds of comparisons being made here between mental things and physical things like cancer or a broken limb aren't really fair

Why not ??? What is so special about mental illness? Is it some sort of higher disease?

I explained that there is a common root for all illness, which is basically what the Buddha taught, read my post again if you missed it..

But there is only one root for ALL illness, and if that is not understood and accepted I am curious to hear which roots cause physical illness and which roots cause mental illness.

Your turn.

I think the suggestion is more along the lines of, things like anger, aversion, paranoia, awareness, normally considered to be mental--though they may have physical causes or cause things to happen physically--are being linked unfairly with things that are physical--like a bump, an outgrowth of the body, tooth decay, tonsilitus, a fever--even though these things may have mental implications.

Do you agree that the predecessor of physical disease is mental error?

Phenomena are preceded by the heart, ruled by the heart, made of the heart. If you speak or act with a corrupted heart, then suffering follows you — as the wheel of the cart, the track of the ox that pulls it. Phenomena are preceded by the heart, ruled by the heart, made of the heart. If you speak or act with a calm, bright heart, then happiness follows you, like a shadow that never leaves.

Annabel