Recieved alcohol as gift

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Digity
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Digity » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:19 pm

Well, I ate some dessert with alcohol in it over the holidays and it definitely wasn't cooked out, since it was soaked in the cake. Does that count as breaking the precepts? I didn't think it was a big deal, because kids in kindergarten were eating some of it too. It would have been awkward to refuse during the holiday dinner.

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Mkoll
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Mkoll » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:55 pm

Maybe if you follow a strict interpretation of precepts, it broke it. But IMO, you're not breaking it unless you're eating food cooked with it and experiencing a noticeable effect on your mental function. You'd have to be a glutton or the person making the food used way too much alcohol for this to happen. I've eaten a gluttonous amount of tiramisu cake, which had alcohol in it, without feeling anything.

If you were crazy strict, you'd have to avoid ripe fruit. There are almost certainly many molecules of ethanol in there. All that is required for natural ethanol production is the right environment: the necessary microorganisms, sugar, and time.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Digity
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Digity » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:26 pm

BTW it was tiramisu that I ate. :tongue:

Yeah, it's letter vs spirit.

theY
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by theY » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:27 pm

I have no time to translate, however underline texts below, are the answer.
Vinaya Pitaka wrote:6. surāpānavaggo

1. surāpānasikkhāpadaṃ

[326] tena samayena buddho bhagavā cetiyesu cārikaṃ caramāno yena bhaddavatikā tena pāyāsiฯ addasaṃsu kho gopālakā pasupālakā kassakā pathāvino bhagavantaṃ dūratova āgacchantaṃฯ disvāna bhagavantaṃ etadavocuṃ – ‘‘mā kho, bhante, bhagavā ambatitthaṃ agamāsiฯ ambatitthe, bhante, jaṭilassa assame nāgo paṭivasati iddhimā āsiviso [āsīviso (sī. syā.)] ghoravisoฯ so bhagavantaṃ mā viheṭhesī’’tiฯ evaṃ vutte bhagavā tuṇhī ahosiฯ dutiyampi kho…pe.… tatiyampi kho gopālakā pasupālakā kassakā pathāvino bhagavantaṃ etadavocuṃ – ‘‘mā kho, bhante, bhagavā ambatitthaṃ agamāsiฯ ambatitthe, bhante, jaṭilassa assame nāgo paṭivasati iddhimā āsiviso ghoravisoฯ so bhagavantaṃ mā viheṭhesī’’tiฯ tatiyampi kho bhagavā tuṇhī ahosiฯ

atha kho bhagavā anupubbena cārikaṃ caramāno yena bhaddavatikā tadavasariฯ tatra sudaṃ bhagavā bhaddavatikāyaṃ viharati ฯ

atha kho āyasmā sāgato yena ambatitthassa [ambatitthakassa (sī.), ambatitthaṃ (syā.)] jaṭilassa assamo tenupasaṅkami ; upasaṅkamitvā agyāgāraṃ pavisitvā tiṇasanthārakaṃ paññapetvā nisīdi pallaṅkaṃ ābhujitvā ujuṃ kāyaṃ paṇidhāya parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvāฯ addasā kho so nāgo āyasmantaṃ sāgataṃ paviṭṭhaṃ ฯ disvāna dummano [dukkhī dummano (sī. syā.)] padhūpāyi [padhūpāsi (syā. ka.)]ฯ āyasmāpi sāgato padhūpāyi [padhūpāsi (syā. ka.)]ฯ atha kho so nāgo makkhaṃ asahamāno pajjaliฯ āyasmāpi sāgato tejodhātuṃ samāpajjitvā pajjaliฯ atha kho āyasmā sāgato tassa nāgassa tejasā tejaṃ pariyādiyitvā yena bhaddavatikā tenupasaṅkamiฯ atha kho bhagavā bhaddavatikāyaṃ yathābhirantaṃ viharitvā yena kosambī tena cārikaṃ pakkāmiฯ assosuṃ kho kosambikā upāsakā – ‘‘ayyo kira sāgato ambatitthikena nāgena saddhiṃ saṅgāmesī’’tiฯ

atha kho bhagavā anupubbena cārikaṃ caramāno yena kosambī tadavasariฯ atha kho kosambikā upāsakā bhagavato paccuggamanaṃ karitvā yenāyasmā sāgato tenupasaṅkamiṃsu; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmantaṃ sāgataṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ aṭṭhaṃsuฯ ekamantaṃ ṭhitā kho kosambikā upāsakā āyasmantaṃ sāgataṃ etadavocuṃ – ‘‘kiṃ, bhante, ayyānaṃ dullabhañca manāpañca, kiṃ paṭiyādemā’’ti? evaṃ vutte chabbaggiyā bhikkhū kosambike upāsake etadavocuṃ – ‘‘atthāvuso, kāpotikā nāma pasannā bhikkhūnaṃ dullabhā ca manāpā ca, taṃ paṭiyādethā’’tiฯ atha kho kosambikā upāsakā ghare ghare kāpotikaṃ pasannaṃ paṭiyādetvā āyasmantaṃ sāgataṃ piṇḍāya paviṭṭhaṃ disvāna āyasmantaṃ sāgataṃ etadavocuṃ – ‘‘pivatu, bhante, ayyo sāgato kāpotikaṃ pasannaṃ, pivatu , bhante, ayyo sāgato kāpotikaṃ pasanna’’ntiฯ atha kho āyasmā sāgato ghare ghare kāpotikaṃ pasannaṃ pivitvā nagaramhā nikkhamanto nagaradvāre paripatiฯ

atha kho bhagavā sambahulehi bhikkhūhi saddhiṃ nagaramhā nikkhamanto addasa āyasmantaṃ sāgataṃ nagaradvāre paripatantaṃฯ disvāna bhikkhū āmantesi – ‘‘gaṇhatha, bhikkhave, sāgata’’ntiฯ ‘‘evaṃ, bhante’’ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paṭissuṇitvā āyasmantaṃ sāgataṃ ārāmaṃ netvā yena bhagavā tena sīsaṃ katvā nipātesuṃฯ

atha kho āyasmā sāgato parivattitvā yena bhagavā tena pāde karitvā seyyaṃ kappesi ฯ atha kho bhagavā bhikkhū āmantesi – ‘‘nanu, bhikkhave, pubbe sāgato tathāgate sagāravo ahosi sappatisso’’ti ? ‘‘evaṃ, bhante’’ฯ ‘‘api nu kho, bhikkhave, sāgato etarahi tathāgate sagāravo sappatisso’’ti? ‘‘no hetaṃ, bhante’’ฯ ‘‘nanu, bhikkhave, sāgato ambatitthikena nāgena [ḍeḍḍubhenāpi (sī. syā.)] saddhiṃ saṅgāmesī’’ti? ‘‘evaṃ, bhante’’ฯ ‘‘api nu kho, bhikkhave, sāgato etarahi pahoti nāgena saddhiṃ saṅgāmetu’’nti? ‘‘no hetaṃ, bhante’’ฯ ‘‘api nu kho, bhikkhave, taṃ pātabbaṃ yaṃ pivitvā visaññī assā’’ti? ‘‘no hetaṃ, bhante’’ฯ ‘‘ananucchavikaṃ, bhikkhave, sāgatassa ananulomikaṃ appatirūpaṃ assāmaṇakaṃ akappiyaṃ akaraṇīyaṃฯ kathañhi nāma, bhikkhave, sāgato majjaṃ pivissati! netaṃ, bhikkhave, appasannānaṃ vā pasādāya…pe.… evañca pana, bhikkhave, imaṃ sikkhāpadaṃ uddiseyyātha –

[327] ‘‘surāmerayapāne pācittiya’’ntiฯ

[328] surā nāma piṭṭhasurā pūvasurā odanasurā kiṇṇapakkhittā sambhārasaṃyuttāฯ

merayo nāma pupphāsavo phalāsavo madhvāsavo guḷāsavo sambhārasaṃyuttoฯ

piveyyāti antamaso kusaggenapi pivati, āpatti pācittiyassaฯ

majje majjasaññī pivati, āpatti pācittiyassaฯ majje vematiko pivati, āpatti pācittiyassaฯ majje amajjasaññī pivati, āpatti pācittiyassaฯ

amajje majjasaññī, āpatti dukkaṭassaฯ amajje vematiko, āpatti dukkaṭassaฯ amajje amajjasaññī, anāpattiฯ

[329] anāpatti amajjañca hoti majjavaṇṇaṃ majjagandhaṃ majjarasaṃ taṃ pivati, sūpasampāke, maṃsasampāke, telasampāke, āmalakaphāṇite, amajjaṃ ariṭṭhaṃ pivati, ummattakassa, ādikammikassātiฯ

surāpānasikkhāpadaṃ niṭṭhitaṃ paṭhamaṃฯ
Commentary wrote:6. surāpānavaggo

1. surāpānasikkhāpadavaṇṇanā

[326] surāpānavaggassa paṭhamasikkhāpade – bhaddavatikāti eko gāmo, so bhaddikāya vatiyā samannāgatattā etaṃ nāma labhiฯ pathāvinoti addhikāฯ tejasā tejanti attano tejasā ānubhāvena nāgassa tejaṃฯ kāpotikāti kapotapādasamavaṇṇarattobhāsāฯ pasannāti surāmaṇḍassetaṃ adhivacanaṃฯ ananucchaviyaṃ bhikkhave sāgatassāti pañcābhiññassa sato majjapānaṃ nāma na anucchaviyanti vuttaṃ hotiฯ

[328] pupphāsavo nāma madhukapupphādīnaṃ rasena katoฯ phalāsavo nāma muddikaphalādīni madditvā tesaṃ rasena katoฯ madhvāsavo nāma muddikānaṃ jātirasena kato; makkhikamadhunāpi kariyatīti vadantiฯ guḷāsavo nāma ucchurasādīhi kariyatiฯ surā nāma piṭṭhakiṇṇapakkhittā; nāḷikerādīnampi rasena katā surātveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchati, tassāyeva kiṇṇapakkhittāya maṇḍe gahite merayotveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchatīti vadantiฯ antamaso kusaggenapi pivatīti etaṃ suraṃ vā merayaṃ vā bījato paṭṭhāya kusaggena pivatopi pācittiyanti atthoฯ ekena pana payogena bahumpi pivantassa ekā āpattiฯ vicchinditvā vicchinditvā pivato payogagaṇanāya āpattiyoฯ

[329] amajjañca hoti majjavaṇṇaṃ majjagandhaṃ majjarasanti loṇasovīrakaṃ vā suttaṃ vā hotiฯ sūpasampāketi vāsagāhāpanatthaṃ īsakaṃ majjaṃ pakkhipitvā sūpaṃ pacanti, tasmiṃ anāpattiฯ maṃsasampākepi eseva nayoฯ telaṃ pana vātabhesajjatthaṃ majjena saddhiṃ pacanti, tasmimpi anatikkhittamajjeyeva anāpatti, yaṃ pana atikkhittamajjaṃ hoti, ettha majjassa vaṇṇagandharasā paññāyanti, tasmiṃ āpattiyevaฯ amajjaṃ ariṭṭhanti yo ariṭṭho majjaṃ na hoti, tasmiṃ anāpattiฯ āmalakādīnaṃyeva kira rasena ariṭṭhaṃ karonti, so majjavaṇṇagandharasoyeva hoti, na ca majjaṃ; taṃ sandhāyetaṃ vuttaṃฯ yo pana sambhārapakkhitto, so majjaṃ hoti, bījato paṭṭhāya na vaṭṭatiฯ sesamettha uttānamevaฯ eḷakalomasamuṭṭhānaṃ – kiriyaṃ, nosaññāvimokkhaṃ, acittakaṃ, lokavajjaṃ, kāyakammaṃ akusalacittaṃ, tivedanantiฯ vatthuajānanatāya cettha acittakatā veditabbā, akusaleneva pātabbatāya lokavajjatātiฯ

surāpānasikkhāpadaṃ paṭhamaṃฯ
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Digity
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Digity » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:02 am

If only I could read Pali... :tantrum:

SarathW
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:35 am

Digity wrote:I started making the vinegar a few days ago. Thanks for the idea Bhante!
Could you give the recipe?
:thanks:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Digity
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Digity » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:50 am

SarathW wrote:
Digity wrote:I started making the vinegar a few days ago. Thanks for the idea Bhante!
Could you give the recipe?
:thanks:
Dhammanando wrote:How to Make Wine Vinegar

theY
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by theY » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:00 am

Digity wrote:If only I could read Pali... :tantrum:
You can ask in pali forum. When I or another have a time, we will translate it.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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ganegaar
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by ganegaar » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:59 am

why don't you save it, so you can give it back to him as a present when the occation arise ?
I suppose it is not bad karma to present it back :).
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

Digity
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Digity » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:43 pm

I'm not sure how the vinegar is turning out. It's been 7 days with one batch and I haven't noticed a difference. I think it's suppose to develop some sort of film on top, but haven't seen it yet. It did say it could take up to 10 days or something like that. Hopefully it'll turn out.

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Mkoll
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Mkoll » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:06 pm

Warmth speeds up fermentation. Not too much, mind you.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Digity
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Digity » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:54 pm

Mkoll wrote:Warmth speeds up fermentation. Not too much, mind you.
That could explain it. It's winter and I turn down the heat in the house when I'm not here, which is most of the day. When I am here I don't turn up the heat much.

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Mkoll
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Mkoll » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:05 pm

Yeah, that could definitely do it. If there is a warmer spot in your house, say on top of the fridge or edit: near hot water heater, you could try putting it there, though I'd check the temp. to ensure it doesn't kill your fermenters.

edit: on top of hot water heater would would probably get too hot.
Last edited by Mkoll on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Disciple
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Disciple » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:14 pm

Gotta admit this thread has got me craving for a cold one. :embarassed:

theY
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by theY » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:22 pm

Vinaya Pitaka Surāpāṇasikkhāpada wrote:[329] No āpatti in these case:
  1. amajjañca hoti majjavaṇṇaṃ majjagandhaṃ majjarasaṃ taṃ pivati,
  2. (hot) cooking mix with viand (sūpasampāke),
  3. (hot) cooking mix with meat (maṃsasampāke),
  4. (hot) cooking mix with oil (telasampāke),
  5. āmalakaphāṇite,
  6. amajjaṃ ariṭṭhaṃ pivati,
  7. ummattakassa,
  8. ādikammikassātiฯ
In commentary wrote: "sūpasampāke" mean people put a little majja (surā) (in sūpa) to make better smell then hot cook that sūpa. So no āpatti in this case. maṃsasampāke mean the same, too.

But in the case "people hot cook tela (oil) with majja (surā) to be vātabba-disease". It is no āpatti, if it just is not too much. If it have majja-color, majja-smell, majja-taste, It is just āpatti.
My english is terrible. I'm sorry.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Digity
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Re: Recieved alcohol as gift

Post by Digity » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 am

Mkoll wrote:Yeah, that could definitely do it. If there is a warmer spot in your house, say on top of the fridge or edit: near hot water heater, you could try putting it there, though I'd check the temp. to ensure it doesn't kill your fermenters.

edit: on top of hot water heater would would probably get too hot.
I think I know how I can do it. I've made tempeh before, which is fermented soy. Basically, you put the tempeh inside of a cooler with a light bulb on a dimmer. You make the light dim, but it provides enough heat for the incubation. I wonder if I could do something similar with the wine, but I'd probably have set the light bulb rather low on the dimmer.

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