The Two-fold nature of Siila

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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ihrjordan
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The Two-fold nature of Siila

Post by ihrjordan »

I've come to a couple conclusions regarding the way in which abstention from evil has an effect on the world around us and I'm posting these in order that someone may either straighten my views or fortify them.

Firstly, Virtue (meaning the mental abstaining from commiting an evil act rather than the "physical lack of doing evil") serves the purpose of keeping onself as free from harm as possible. Harm of course is refering to the result of previous evil actions. The more virtuous one becomes by way of taking up more precepts and abstaining from more and more uselessness, the greater one's chance of avoiding painful experiences. And it is my understanding that the longer one abstains from evil all the while cultivating the good, the weaker and weaker future results will be. Take for example a case where one killed another in a previous life but in the present they manage to find the dharma and keep "perfect" virtue, It is my understanding that the kammic fuel will gradually burn out, and become so subtle so as to barely be felt at all; whereas the unvirtuous may have been murdered for their previous killing, the virtuous may experience this as a mosquito bite or a stub on the toe.

Secondly, regarding the rewards of virtue, it is my understanding that the more and more virtuous one is then the more and more subtle the results of previous goods deeds will be. Take for example the case of a poor man giving his last cloth to the Buddha or one of his disciples; if this man keeps poor virtue then this deed may be felt as pleasure in the form of property, money, good looks, a partner etc. Whereas if he kept a lot of precepts and abstained from "worldy" things such as seeing shows and handling money and maintaining property the result would only be able to ripen in an environment which allows for it; culminating in a good deed done long ago directly leading one to nibbana by way of abstention from activities typically not considered evil where the fruit otherwise would have ripened. In both cases the result is experienced as an increasingly subtle state depending on one's level of virtue.

I feel it's important not to see virtue as merely a mode by which we gain concentration although it does retain this element. I feel this can be a tad bit utilitarian and sometimes result in us viewing "less important" rules as simply that when they are anything but; albeit this view can be helpful for translating this underlying mechanism into an observable force; the way in which virtue functions is astounding and really the most powerful method by which we can guide our progress this way or that.

But this is just my 2cents.
SarathW
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Re: The Two-fold nature of Siila

Post by SarathW »

There is no short answer.
It seems you have some misunderstanding about the way Kamma works.
So I suggest you read this book.
==================
Good, Evil and Beyond: Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching
Book by Prayudh Payutto

https://www.google.com/search?q=Good+evil+and+beyond" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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ihrjordan
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Re: The Two-fold nature of Siila

Post by ihrjordan »

Could you perhaps elucidate my misunderstanding as this is a discussion forum and as I'm not really interested in the whole suggested reading thing.
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Cittasanto
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Re: The Two-fold nature of Siila

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ihrjordan wrote:Firstly, Virtue (meaning the mental abstaining from commiting an evil act rather than the "physical lack of doing evil") serves the purpose of keeping onself as free from harm as possible. Harm of course is refering to the result of previous evil actions. The more virtuous one becomes by way of taking up more precepts and abstaining from more and more uselessness, the greater one's chance of avoiding painful experiences. And it is my understanding that the longer one abstains from evil all the while cultivating the good, the weaker and weaker future results will be. Take for example a case where one killed another in a previous life but in the present they manage to find the dharma and keep "perfect" virtue, It is my understanding that the kammic fuel will gradually burn out, and become so subtle so as to barely be felt at all; whereas the unvirtuous may have been murdered for their previous killing, the virtuous may experience this as a mosquito bite or a stub on the toe.
It is arguable that the physical abstention keeps us free from harm. However the physical and mental are intertwined.... It seams you believe something akin to burning past kamma away, which can not happen, even an Arahant faces their previous bad kamma. Skillfulness in the present does not destroy the consequenses of previous unskilled acts. Kamma is not a balancing act where one act mitigates another seperate act unless they are connected somehow, i.e. appologising and making amends for something done would have consequences for that act, but not another.
Secondly, regarding the rewards of virtue, it is my understanding that the more and more virtuous one is then the more and more subtle the results of previous goods deeds will be. Take for example the case of a poor man giving his last cloth to the Buddha or one of his disciples; if this man keeps poor virtue then this deed may be felt as pleasure in the form of property, money, good looks, a partner etc. Whereas if he kept a lot of precepts and abstained from "worldy" things such as seeing shows and handling money and maintaining property the result would only be able to ripen in an environment which allows for it; culminating in a good deed done long ago directly leading one to nibbana by way of abstention from activities typically not considered evil where the fruit otherwise would have ripened. In both cases the result is experienced as an increasingly subtle state depending on one's level of virtue.

We do not reach the end of the path through virtue alone. It is an eightfold path.
I feel it's important not to see virtue as merely a mode by which we gain concentration although it does retain this element. I feel this can be a tad bit utilitarian and sometimes result in us viewing "less important" rules as simply that when they are anything but; albeit this view can be helpful for translating this underlying mechanism into an observable force; the way in which virtue functions is astounding and really the most powerful method by which we can guide our progress this way or that.
Just becaus we perfect the skill of walking doesn't mean we will reach our destination. knowing how to walk and knowing the route, and putting effort to get their is also neededd. i.e.right view, right effort, and right mindfulness are key to the rest of the path. we can be generouse but stupid in how we use our resourses in generouse acts.

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Cittasanto
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ihrjordan
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Re: The Two-fold nature of Siila

Post by ihrjordan »

Cittasanto wrote:It is arguable that the physical abstention keeps us free from harm.
No it doesn't. The physical world holds no sway over the mental qualities we develop unless we allow it to in which case it is still an internal ordeal.
Cittasanto wrote:It seams you believe something akin to burning past kamma away,

I do not. I understand that kamma can be mitigated to a great extent and there is evidence of this in the canon (see angulimala and devadatta for instance.)
Cittasanto wrote:Skillfulness in the present does not destroy the consequenses of previous unskilled acts.
I never claimed it did, but rather made it more and more subtle so as to be experienced as something trivial rather than a couple eons in hell.
Cittasanto wrote:Kamma is not a balancing act where one act mitigates another seperate act unless they are connected somehow, i.e. appologising and making amends for something done would have consequences for that act, but not another.
Well that's a silly comparison as apologizing is not virtuous in and of itself in regards to Buddhism. But actually I would say it very much is a balancing act and unless someone may provide textual evidence for the opposite I may continue to understand it as such.
Cittasanto wrote:We do not reach the end of the path through virtue alone. It is an eightfold path.
Well An 10.2 seems to say the opposite...
“For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May freedom from remorse arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue...“For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.’ It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release." An10.2
It would seemt hat virtue does indeed take one to enlightenment.
Cittasanto wrote:Just becaus we perfect the skill of walking doesn't mean we will reach our destination. knowing how to walk and knowing the route, and putting effort to get their is also neededd. i.e.right view, right effort, and right mindfulness are key to the rest of the path. we can be generouse but stupid in how we use our resourses in generouse acts.
This is a little bit of a straw man as the fact that one must know what virtue is, is taken for granted. How else could one be virtuous if they've yet to understand what it is? But once one does it will lead to the end of suffering.
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ihrjordan
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Re: The Two-fold nature of Siila

Post by ihrjordan »

The entire Dhamma is really based on the principle of virtue and everything else is an outgrowth of:

"The non-doing of any evil,
the performance of what's skillful,
the cleansing of one's own mind:
this is the teaching
of the Awakened."

This in my mind is referring to virtue.
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