is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Post Reply
lotus flower
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:04 pm

is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by lotus flower » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:31 pm

Hello all :buddha1: i train celibacy and i practice Asubha meditations also. but i masturbate sometimes. i can not leave masturbation, i can leave it only for 3 months. i don't watch porn and i don't looking for sex. i try the best. i want complete celibacy. i understood Dhamma and my practice at the last months as never before - i can tell i made progress. i would like to know is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex? i think, yes. when someone does sex then this person wish the another person's body. when i said "hindrance" i thought hindrance to meditation.

i readed Patimokkha and it says if an ordained does masturbation then need not leave the monastery but get strict. but if doing sex then the person must leave the monastery.

so my thoughts and Patimokkha shows that sex is a bigger hindrance than masturbation. am i think right....?

Thanks. :buddha1:
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:

User avatar
Sweet_Nothing
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:58 am

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by Sweet_Nothing » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:03 am

I think hindrance is not the best word, since it is an action. Masturbation arises when one succumbs to the hindrance of sensuality.

It is like being defeated by your enemy. If we learn something from our defeats and grow in wisdom, becone stronger and more resolved, then it is beneficial.

Be compassionate with yourself. It is definitely less harmful than having sex with a partner. In fact, sexual memories with real partners are some of the strongest attachments/impressions to dissolve. Definitely, Masturbation is much less harmful. 3 months is great - everytime you do it, see what caused it and you may be able to learn from it and go longer.

For the basic kind of lay people, it is allowed to have 1 life partner and engage in sex. These lay people were expected to be reborn as monks or devas who can then practice seriously and attain path.

With following the eightfold path and right meditation, we slowly become detached from sex and can observe arising and passing of lust with equanimity, without acting on it. This happens as our past kammas of sex slowly dissolve.

In todays environment, it is not always convinient to become a monk, so we can adopt some more precepts - practice diligently and make good progress even as a householder.
Homage to the triple gem.

SarathW
Posts: 8068
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:54 am

Craving for sensual pleasure is considered unwholesome.
Eating food in moderation is ok but craving for food is unwholesome.
:thinking:


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SamBodhi
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:38 pm
Contact:

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by SamBodhi » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:38 am

It may be worth considering that the Pratimoksha vows and punishment might be more severe because of the hindrance of result. That us to say, the result of sex is the hindrance of children... So the incentive against having sex is greater than for masturbation.

On the other side, the cause is probably considered to be on equal footing. The craving that causes either sex or masturbation is to be overcome without letting it control you.


with Metta,
SamBodhi
"An inward-staying
unentangled knowing,
All outward-going knowing
cast aside."
--Upasika Kee Nanayon

perkele
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by perkele » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:15 am

Sweet_Nothing wrote:Be compassionate with yourself. It is definitely less harmful than having sex with a partner. In fact, sexual memories with real partners are some of the strongest attachments/impressions to dissolve. Definitely, Masturbation is much less harmful.
I don't know where this is coming from, but it seems to be a widely held view in this "subculture". I wonder where it is coming from, which I find quite disturbing, because to me it seems wrong, the view that "masturbation is more wholesome than sex with a partner". I have the suspicion that people come to such conclusions from a somewhat neurotically promiscuous lifestyle (as maybe the thread about womanizing somewhat hints at). But I don't think such "life lessons" would be representative for a general rule. And my reasoning tells me that habitual and uncontrolled indulgence in masturbation can just as easily or easier take on no less neurotic patterns. It can lead to total isolation and deterioration of all social skills, while the interaction with another person to have sex, even if it be only out of total all-out rascality would require to include at least some amount of wholesome exchange, i.e. giving and taking, and a certain effort at maintaining sociability (as long as it's not rape).
So, let me ask you, Sweet_Nothing: Where did you get this from? Where did you learn it? Or is it exclusively from life experience and own observation?
Sweet_Nothing wrote:3 months is great - everytime you do it, see what caused it and you may be able to learn from it and go longer.
Yeah, really good. I think in a society widespread social isolation coupled with unlimited access to pornography this level of sobriety can probably considered quite above the norm.
For the basic kind of lay people, it is allowed to have 1 life partner and engage in sex. These lay people were expected to be reborn as monks or devas who can then practice seriously and attain path.
I did not know that one could be born as a monk...
Also, the precepts don't say anything against more than one "life partner" or even casual sexual relationships. Of course, restricting one's sexual affections to one life partner and also respecting what is socially acceptable or held in good esteem would likely lead to a much more wholesome relationship.
It may be worth considering that the Pratimoksha vows and punishment might be more severe because of the hindrance of result. That us to say, the result of sex is the hindrance of children... So the incentive against having sex is greater than for masturbation.

On the other side, the cause is probably considered to be on equal footing. The craving that causes either sex or masturbation is to be overcome without letting it control you.


with Metta,
SamBodhi
Yes, I think taking monastic rules of conduct as a measure for lay people's behaviour can result in quite unhealthy attitudes and contraditions.

If I recall correctly, in olden times the monastic rules were not even made available to lay people. I think as per the patimokkha it is forbidden to recite it in the presence of laypeople, and an aspiring monk would learn the rules only at his ordination. I think there could be some rationale behind it in this direction, that people would be confused about what's moral and wholesome in their situation, involved in society and lay life, as opposed to the (ideally) more secluded and aloof life of a monk.

The Sigalovada sutta may serve as a better orientation.

lotus flower
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:04 pm

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by lotus flower » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:34 pm

When someone does sex then someone wants to be saitisfy. it happens when someone masturbate. but when someone does sex then someone craving for a sexy body also, wants see feel, touch, satisfy another body. Doesn't seems like more and more craving?
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:

User avatar
Sweet_Nothing
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:58 am

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by Sweet_Nothing » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:47 pm

perkele wrote:
Sweet_Nothing wrote:Be compassionate with yourself. It is definitely less harmful than having sex with a partner. In fact, sexual memories with real partners are some of the strongest attachments/impressions to dissolve. Definitely, Masturbation is much less harmful.
I don't know where this is coming from, but it seems to be a widely held view in this "subculture". I wonder where it is coming from, which I find quite disturbing, because to me it seems wrong, the view that "masturbation is more wholesome than sex with a partner". I have the suspicion that people come to such conclusions from a somewhat neurotically promiscuous lifestyle (as maybe the thread about womanizing somewhat hints at). But I don't think such "life lessons" would be representative for a general rule. And my reasoning tells me that habitual and uncontrolled indulgence in masturbation can just as easily or easier take on no less neurotic patterns. It can lead to total isolation and deterioration of all social skills, while the interaction with another person to have sex, even if it be only out of total all-out rascality would require to include at least some amount of wholesome exchange, i.e. giving and taking, and a certain effort at maintaining sociability (as long as it's not rape).
So, let me ask you, Sweet_Nothing: Where did you get this from? Where did you learn it? Or is it exclusively from life experience and own observation?
Hello Perkele. :anjali:

My view is that masturbation is less unwholesome than casual sex, when indulged at the same rate as one would otherwise indulge in casual sex. I am probably younger than you (23) and dont have a whole lot of sexual encounters to precisely compare the harm. I am also not as well read as many of the participants on this forum - but in the texts that I have come across - no comparisons are made between masturbation and casual sex. Thus, I speak entirely from personal experience.

Unwholesome actions are harmful, in what way ?

Unwholesome actions are harmful, because such actions require greed/anger or delusion as a precursor. When the corresponding attribute is indulged in, and the resultant mind/body states are relished without knowledge of annica - then the previously held impressions/sankharas of greed/anger or delusion that caused them are reinforced; and new impressions are created from the present indulgence which can be both - reinforcing (blind, carefree enjoyment) or non reinforcing (when annica, dukkha and anatta are observed along during the unwholesome action).
The level of harm involved is proportionate to the amount of new attachments/impressions that are hereby created.

My personal experience has been that the very limited sexual encounters that I had with a real partner, created sankharas that were much stronger - deeper in my mind. It took me a good part of my practice to (maybe partially) dissolve them. Often during intense retreats or dreams the mind would go back to these partners, even when consciously I had completely forgotten them.

On the contrary - It has been relatively easier (and faster) for me to dissolve the sankharas that are related to masturbation. I think because the object of indulgement - maybe a pornstar, or the sensations of pleasure, etc were temporary arrangements that I did not give much importance to. I did not develop deep kammic, or physical bonds, or strong memories with them (as opposed to the real people I had sex with). Often I forgot them right after the orgasm, and that was that.

Also, casual sex can result in many real problems like stds, indulgence in other unwholesome activities like intoxication, waste of time, emotional investments, etc. Masturbation is like a very temporary fix that does not solve anything - but acts like a painkiller when pain is unbearable. Casual sex might be akin to full blown anesthesia in comparison.

As for the possibility of a certain self pleasuring scenario that may lead to "total isolation and lack of social skills", I can only imagine a worldwide boom in the pornography industry - demand & supply for increasingly devious sub categories of porn as well as a spike in demand for tissue papers - all of which have been the case in the past decade. :jumping:

Many individuals are addicted to porn and seeking some kind of treatment. I once saw an insightful film called "Shame" which depicts the life of an individual helplessly, and depressingly addicted to sex. Shame : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1723811/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree that in extremes, both can be equally bad. However, with insight practice, very limited indulgement and observance of the 3 characteristics - masturbation can be less addictive and harmful than full blown sex with a casual partner. I also find it difficult to accept the idea of seeking another individual just to satisfy my temporary urges (or use their body) while disregarding everything else about them. I mean - a human being is such a wonderful, complex entity and to perceive them as just an outlet, in itself is a gross dilution of perception.
Sweet_Nothing wrote:3 months is great - everytime you do it, see what caused it and you may be able to learn from it and go longer.
Yeah, really good. I think in a society widespread social isolation coupled with unlimited access to pornography this level of sobriety can probably considered quite above the norm.


My average was a month and now its a few more months. My catalyst has not been social isolation but rather being part of a global culture that pretty much revolves around sex. We are socially and commercially conditioned to become consumers of imaginary pleasures that are unrealistic. Everything in the city or on the media reeks of sex - and I can only imagine how much more it is so in the west. I say this living in India, which is still comparatively orthodox.
For the basic kind of lay people, it is allowed to have 1 life partner and engage in sex. These lay people were expected to be reborn as monks or devas who can then practice seriously and attain path.
I did not know that one could be born as a monk...
Also, the precepts don't say anything against more than one "life partner" or even casual sexual relationships. Of course, restricting one's sexual affections to one life partner and also respecting what is socially acceptable or held in good esteem would likely lead to a much more wholesome relationship.
My apologies. I meant that a householder can either ordain in future or be reborn as a human, and then ordain in a future life (presumably with more merit or paramis). At a time, I think more than 1 partner is unwholesome and that is what I wanted to suggest. As I wrote earlier, I am not well read. Maybe I will learn Pali somewhere down the line. There are some things the suttas may appear to be ambiguous about but it is better for us to choose what is wholesome in such matters - based on learnings from the suttas. For eg: there is much hue about whether smoking or smoking marijuana breaks the third precept, because compared to alcohol it is not so explicitly mentioned (to my knowledge), and it was just as widely available back then as it is now.
Homage to the triple gem.

perkele
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by perkele » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:09 pm

Hello Sweet_Nothing,

I think what you say is quite insightful overall. Thanks for taking the time to explain your views and experiences and satisfying my curiosity.

Certainly, experiences vary widely. I think we cannot conclusively settle the issue whether casual sex or habitual masturbation (both indulged in to a measure of debauchery) is more unwholesome. It all depends on the individual and his accumulated tendencies.

:anjali:

lotus flower
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:04 pm

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by lotus flower » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:43 am

really,thanks for share your own experiences and thoughts.
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:

User avatar
Alobha
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by Alobha » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:24 pm

lotus flower wrote:i would like to know is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex? i think, yes. when someone does sex then this person wish the another person's body. when i said "hindrance" i thought hindrance to meditation.
Unless you have sex or masturbate while meditating, neither of them are a hindrance to meditation. The desires which accompany these activities are the hindrance here. Don't worry which of them is bigger or smaller - They're both great dangers to wisdom and clarity of mind.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6331
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by Mkoll » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:35 am

Sweet_Nothing wrote:For eg: there is much hue about whether smoking or smoking marijuana breaks the third precept, because compared to alcohol it is not so explicitly mentioned (to my knowledge), and it was just as widely available back then as it is now.
Do you have a reference for the claim I highlighted in your post? Regardless, I find it to be highly unlikely, the main reason being that the transportation infrastructure/technology that exists today did not exist back then and thus trade would not have been nearly as developed.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3615
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:44 am

Mkoll wrote:
Sweet_Nothing wrote:For eg: there is much hue about whether smoking or smoking marijuana breaks the third precept, because compared to alcohol it is not so explicitly mentioned (to my knowledge), and it was just as widely available back then as it is now.
Do you have a reference for the claim I highlighted in your post? Regardless, I find it to be highly unlikely, the main reason being that the transportation infrastructure/technology that exists today did not exist back then and thus trade would not have been nearly as developed.
You wouldn't really need much of a "transportation infrastructure" for a plant that's indigenous to South Asia, is a staple of Ayurveda, and grows virtually everywhere.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6331
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by Mkoll » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:43 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
Sweet_Nothing wrote:For eg: there is much hue about whether smoking or smoking marijuana breaks the third precept, because compared to alcohol it is not so explicitly mentioned (to my knowledge), and it was just as widely available back then as it is now.
Do you have a reference for the claim I highlighted in your post? Regardless, I find it to be highly unlikely, the main reason being that the transportation infrastructure/technology that exists today did not exist back then and thus trade would not have been nearly as developed.
You wouldn't really need much of a "transportation infrastructure" for a plant that's indigenous to South Asia, is a staple of Ayurveda, and grows virtually everywhere.
I would think a highly developed system of trade is necessary for a product to be considered widely available.

Also keep in mind that not all cannabis sativa is meant for smoking. Many varieties, called hemp, are grown for fiber, oil, etc.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
Sweet_Nothing
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:58 am

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by Sweet_Nothing » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:14 pm

Mkoll wrote: I would think a highly developed system of trade is necessary for a product to be considered widely available.

Also keep in mind that not all cannabis sativa is meant for smoking. Many varieties, called hemp, are grown for fiber, oil, etc.
Really, it grows almost everywhere in India even today. It does not require a transportation infrastructure because it can be locally produced and stored for a reasonable time, or processed into other substances that can be stored even longer (hashish, bhang, etc).

There is a reason why it is called "Weed".
Homage to the triple gem.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6331
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by Mkoll » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:19 pm

Sweet_Nothing wrote:
Mkoll wrote: I would think a highly developed system of trade is necessary for a product to be considered widely available.

Also keep in mind that not all cannabis sativa is meant for smoking. Many varieties, called hemp, are grown for fiber, oil, etc.
Really, it grows almost everywhere in India even today. It does not require a transportation infrastructure because it can be locally produced and stored for a reasonable time, or processed into other substances that can be stored even longer (hashish, bhang, etc).

There is a reason why it is called "Weed".
That's all fine and dandy, but my initial question remains unanswered. That's alright though, as this is off topic.

:focus:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
Sweet_Nothing
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:58 am

Re: is masturbation a lower hindrance than sex?

Post by Sweet_Nothing » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:39 pm

That's all fine and dandy, but my initial question remains unanswered. That's alright though, as this is off topic.

:focus:
Please accept the following with a pinch of salt.

-----------------------------
Psychology Today

History of Cannabis in India
By Jann Gumbiner, Ph.D. on June 16, 2011 - 9:45am
Cannabis has a long history in India, veiled in legends and religion. The earliest mention of cannabis has been found in The Vedas, or sacred Hindu texts. These writings may have been compiled as early as 2000 to 1400 B.C. According to The Vedas, cannabis was one of five sacred plants and a guardian angel lived in its leaves. The Vedas call cannabis a source of happiness, joy-giver, liberator that was compassionately given to humans to help us attain delight and lose fear (Abel, 1980). It releases us from anxiety. The god, Shiva is frequently associated with cannabis, called bhang in India. According to legend, Shiva wandered off into the fields after an angry discourse with his family. Drained from the family conflict and the hot sun, he fell asleep under a leafy plant. When he awoke, his curiosity led him to sample the leaves of the plant. Instantly rejuvenated, Shiva made the plant his favorite food and he became known as the Lord of Bhang. To see an Indian painting of Shiva drinking bhang follow this link http://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/HB53/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

During the Middle Ages, soldiers often took a drink of bhang before entering battle, just as Westerners took a swig of whiskey. One story tells of the Sikh leader, Gobind Singhs's soldiers being scared by an attacking elephant with a sword in his trunk. Terrified, the men nearly mutinied until Singh gave one courageous man a mixture of bhang and opium. The herbs have him the strength and agility to slip under the elephant from below and kill him without endangering himself. This act of courage led Singh's men to victory over the enemy.

Cannabis has been popular in India since the beginning of recorded history and is often taken as a drink. Nuts and spices, like almonds, pistachios, poppy seeds, pepper, ginger and sugar are combined with cannabis and boiled with milk. Yogurt is also used instead of milk. For a demonstration of the preparation of bhang, follow this link from the Travel Channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEhXjnoGriI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Bhang is also rolled and eaten in small balls. Bhang is about the strength of Western marijuana. Because milk contains fat, mixing cannabis with milk is an effective means of extracting THC but ingesting marijuana takes longer to feel the effects and is less consistent. Other preparations of cannabis in India include ganja and charas. Stronger than bhang, ganja is made from the flowers and upper leaves of the female plant. Charas is the strongest preparation and is made from blooming flowers. Similar in strength to hashish, charas contains a lot of resin. Both are smoked in an earthenware pipe called a chillum. The pipe is usually shared among 2 to 5 people, making smoking a communal activity.


The British found the use of cannabis so extensive in colonial India, that they commissioned a large scale study in the late 1890s (Iverson, 2008). They were concerned that the abuse of cannabis was endangering the health of the native people and driving them insane. The British government asked the government of India to appoint a commission to look into the cultivation of the hemp plant, preparation of drugs from it, trade in those drugs, the social and moral impact of its consumption, and possible prohibition. Over 1,000 standardized interviews were conducted throughout India by eminent British and Indian medical experts. The commission was systematic and thorough. It sampled a large and diverse group of people in a range of situations, from farmers to hospital psychiatrists. After years of detailed work, The Indian Hemp Drugs Commission Report produced six volumes of data and conclusions. Commissioners were particularly concerned with whether or not cannabis caused psychoses. After years of through and well conducted research, The Commission concluded that suppressing the use of herbal cannabis (bhang) would be totally unjustifiable. They concluded that its use is very ancient, has some religious sanction among Hindus, and is harmless in moderation. In fact, more harm was done by alcohol. Furthermore, prohibition would be difficult to enforce, encourage outcries by religious clerics, and possibly lead to the use of more dangerous narcotics. These findings of The Indian Hemp Drugs Commission Report of 1894, conducted over 100 years ago, are surprisingly relevant today.

Cannabis continues to be available in India of the 20th and 21st centuries. In their review in the mid-fifties, Chopra and Chopra (1957) found little changed since the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission Report of 1894. Construction workers use bhang to feel refreshed at the end of the day and to fight fatigue. Hindus use bhang for religious ceremonies like Holi and ascetics use it to seek divinity. Sadhus are Indian ascetics who have shunned material life and use cannabis to seek spiritual freedom. They live simply in the forest and wear ragged clothing. By emphasizing physical austerity through celibacy and fasting, cannabis helps sadhus transcend ordinary reality and achieve transcendence. Today, bhang is so common in some parts of India that it can be found in government licensed street stands. In sum, the herbal plant, cannabis, has a long and continuous history in India. It has lived for thousands of years in stories of gods and warriors and it continues to live today in religious ceremonies and street stands.

References

Abel, E.L. (1980). The First Twelve Thousand Years. New York: McGraw Hill.
Chopra, I.C. and Chopra, R.N. The use of cannabis drugs in India. Bull Narc. 1957. Jan. 4-29.
Iverson, L.L. (2008). The Science of Marijuana. New York: Oxford University Press.









FacebookTwitterEmail
More From Psychology Today
Current Issue: January 2015
Beyond Happiness: The Upside of Feeling Down
Who's your nearest Therapist?
Find Psychology Today verified psychiatrists, therapists, and more
Search Now

© Copyright 1991-2015 Sussex Publishers, LLC
View Full Site
Homage to the triple gem.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests