Cooking with alcohol?

[Digity]

I cook with alcohol, but very rarely. Just recently my mom made these Easter cookies with Brandy in them. I eat them, but I don't feel at all drunk or anything close to that. I follow the 5 precepts and I've never considered it a breach. I've been drunk before, trust me, I'd probably need to eat 100 of those cookies to start feeling the effects in any serious way and by that time I'd probably get sick from eating too much.

The other dish I have is chili with red wine in it and you can't really tell it's in there. You have faint hints of it, but it's not like the food is swimming in wine or anything. Again, after eating a bowl I don't feel the least bit unbalanced.

Keep in mind, the Buddha introduced the 5th precept after observing a drunk monk (am I correct about that?). This drunk monk wasn't eating chili with red wine sauce...he was drinking straight booze. So, I think it's kind of clear what the Buddha had in mind when he added this precept.

[lyndon taylor]

Another point if your recognize sobriety as a valid goal, why would you want to have bottles of alcohol around the house, seems associating with bottles of alcohol might be just as dangerous as associating with drunks.

[Phena]

Another point if your recognize sobriety as a valid goal, ...

Cooking with alcohol is not inconsistent with this goal. As has been shown numerous times already, it is not a contravention of the Fifth Precept, either by the 'letter' of what is directly prescribed, but more particularly in abiding by the 'spirit' (no pun intended) of this precept's intention - avoiding heedlessness through intoxication.

why would you want to have bottles of alcohol around the house, seems associating with bottles of alcohol might be just as dangerous as associating with drunks.

Definitely, if you feel you will be tempted by having alcohol in your house, then best avoid having it there. But for those who do not have this problem, well, it's just not a problem.To try to characterise this as akin to "associating with drunks", is just a tad hyperbolic and irrational.

[lyndon taylor]

Putting yourself in a situation where you're more likely to drink alcohol would be breaking the spirit of the precept, perhaps you've never had to deal with addiction....

[beeblebrox]

Definitely, if you feel you will be tempted by having alcohol in your house, then best avoid having it there. But for those who do not have this problem, well, it's just not a problem.To try to characterise this as akin to "associating with drunks", is just a tad hyperbolic and irrational.

Hi Phena,

I think it is more like having a collection of porn magazines and then say I'll only use them as kindlings for the fireplace. Is that still an hyperbole?

[panang]

Definitely, if you feel you will be tempted by having alcohol in your house, then best avoid having it there. But for those who do not have this problem, well, it's just not a problem.To try to characterise this as akin to "associating with drunks", is just a tad hyperbolic and irrational.

Hi Phena,

I think it is more like having a collection of porn magazines and then say I'll only use them as kindlings for the fireplace. Is that still an hyperbole?

Yes, that is a bit of a hyperbole. Because, porn magazines are easily replaced with paper or newspaper. Why buy them when you already have them, etc. Cooking with alcohol is different.

This is a very helpful article I found showing how alcohol affects food, as well as how much alcohol is actually burned off when cooking.

http://www.finecooking.com/item/13810/a ... in-cooking

If something is simmered for 2-2 1/2 hours 95% of the alcohol is evaporated. It also speaks of how less alcohol adds more flavor, and drinks with a lower concentration of alcohol is better so the flavor of the alcohol does not dominate. I think is is very good.

[Cittasanto]

Hi All,

I think it is quite easy to cook without alcohol. (I don't have any in possession, anyway.)

Also, I think some people should keep in mind what the Vinaya is for. It was set up because there were some monks who didn't know how to behave properly... or in other words, they didn't behave in a way that was conducive for them to do their practice (and for their community to function well together).

When some people tries to use it as a justification for some of things that they do, I think that misses the point.

When someone put some alcohol in the food that he/she cooked for you, use your discernment! It's OK to eat as a part in sharing the goodwill, but it should also be OK if you let him/her know that you have some problem with it. (As it is the case with some people who have to abstain.)

People should keep in mind what the wider context of the vinaya rules are also, when interpreting rules for application in lay life. The vinaya rule here doesn't justify cooking with alcohol, it only gives an allowance that we can eat food another has graciously made and provided us without forcing our own preferences upon others and being rude, and demanding, as a result - as you rightly point out - I would, however, add that the intention and motivation of why one points out one's own issue with eating food prepared in a certain way needs looked at also, lest conceit creeps in.

[edit= removed nonsense line from my initial misreading of your post here, sorry]

[beeblebrox]

Yes, that is a bit of a hyperbole. Because, porn magazines are easily replaced with paper or newspaper. Why buy them when you already have them, etc. Cooking with alcohol is different.

Hi Panag,

I meant that I find it implausible someone would buy alcohol and then reserve it to use just for cooking. The exception would be something like vanilla extract... but this is common sense.

If something like trifle was someone's favorite dessert while growing up, then I think it is safe bet that this someone would end up enjoying drinking also.

I remember when I was younger (around 10), I tried some candy cordials, and I thought that they were nasty... the enjoyment is a relative thing, and I think it's usually conditioned.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

I meant that I find it implausible someone would buy alcohol and then reserve it to use just for cooking. The exception would be something like vanilla extract... but this is common sense.

Alcohol is sold in some shops in such small measures, to be able to purchase only what is required for cooking... For example... http://www.drinksdirect.co.uk/acatalog/ ... ttles.html

If something like trifle was someone's favorite dessert while growing up, then I think it is safe bet that this someone would end up enjoying drinking also.

Forgive me but this premise does not follow at all. I liked trifle. I don't like alcohol.

I remember when I was younger (around 10), I tried some candy cordials, and I thought that they were nasty... the enjoyment is a relative thing, and I think that it's usually conditioned.

I do not understand what you mean by this: 'Conditioned'...?
You either like something or you don't.
My brother and I were brought up in precisely the same manner. Yet there are some things he enjoys, and I don't, and vice-versa. How can enjoyment be 'conditioned'?

Thank you.

[beeblebrox]

Hi NoBSBuddhist,

Trifle is usually drenched with alcohol. It's maybe not a good example because this thread is about cooking with alcohol.

People assume that it will cook off, and then that the flavor which is left over won't have any effect on the conditioning of a person that ate it. It seems to me that once this person associates the flavor with the alcohol, then it seems natural that he would develop a liking for that, too. (I don't say this to imply that the effect would be the same for everyone.)

Enjoyment is definitely conditioned... it's not nibbana I was trying to talk about.

When I was in college, it wasn't common to see someone who looked like he/she enjoyed the taste of drinking for the very first time. Over the time, some of them became a big drinker, and some even became a connoisser. (Fancy wine, scotch, craft beer etc... while others are just content with Miller High Life.)

I personally would be leery of serving a monastic some chicken marsala, but that's just me.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

I would never serve a monastic anything remotely associated with alcohol at all...

However, if I were cooking a fancy recipe, and it called for some alcoholic content, I would be mindful of those I am preparing it for:

If I was uncertain of their circumstances, I would ask them their preference. In fact, this has happened many times. I tend to lead with, "is there anything you DON'T like?" and often someone will say "Well, I'm not too fond of cabbage/broccoli/lamb/venison....." and then I ask them about the alcohol. I have never to date, been told to omit it, for anyone. And in all honesty, if you are making an authentic dessert like Zabaglione, it is impossible to NOT include the Marsala.....
But I have not made Zabaglione in over 2 years..... And even then, I did not partake.....

If I knew the people very well, As members of my family, for example, there would be no need to ask; I would - and do - know what they like/dislike.

Being Conditioned to like something, is subjective. it's like saying that once someone smokes cannabis, they will always want it, increase consumption and maybe move onto stronger substances, but this premise has been proven to be a fallacy.

I don't agree that ALL enjoyment is conditioned, if that is what you are implying.
Some 'enjoyments' are though, I will agree....

[lyndon taylor]

I still don't get it??? If we agree that alcohol is bad for us, why would we want to get our innocent vegetables all drunk before we eat them?????

[panang]

I do not have an attachment to alcohol. Nor am I conditioned into liking it from years of drinking small amounts until I can drink larger ones and not mind the flavor.

All I am coming from is from a position of flavor. I am extremely sensitive to flavors and to me alcohol is just like any other spice. I would use it if the recipe called for it, and I believed there was a good reason for it to be in there. I would not add it with the intention of becoming drunk or "feeling better". If that was the case someone would just drink it. Although, sometimes I believe this can become extreme.

For instance, just yesterday, my family was watching a cooking show where the lady was cooking short ribs(nasty anyway in my opinion), macaroni and cheese, Madelyns, and irish coffee. You would think she'd just put alcohol in the Irish coffee, but no. Sadly this was not the case.

We were laughing so hard at her. She put wine into the ribs, alcohol into the mac and cheese, whiskey into the Madelyns. And, more than three quarters of the Irish "coffee" was hard liquor.

But, that is not the same thing as adding a 1/4 cup of wine to a large pot of marinara sauce, with the intention of slowly cooking for 8 hours, where 99% of the alcohol is cooked away.

I believe it comes down personal choice and judgment. A monk should definitely not consume anything with alcohol in it. But, a lay person would vary. I think even if the thing your cooking has the 99% alcohol removed, but you are going to be tempted by the bottle in your fridge, you should not cook with alcohol. Just use some judgment on your own, and try not to harm yourself or others.

[Cittasanto]

I cant find the posts/thread this is specifically relevant to unfortunately, But it does have some relevance here.

In the thread there was some discussion on drinking wine due to the supposed health benefits and here is some info on that, which has in the past shown benefitial properties but now not necessarily considered so good.
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-suppl ... -after-all

If anyone knows the exact threads location please share it there

[Mkoll]

Also, from the BBC:

Red wine health benefits 'overhyped'