Abortion

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
chownah
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Re: Abortion and the first precept

Post by chownah » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:30 am

dylanj wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:24 am
save the babies
It seems that before descent into the womb there are no babies according to the pali canon.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Abortion and the first precept

Post by chownah » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:35 am

Here is the thread I mentioned:
Female Buddhists, rape, and the 1st precept
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29714&p=429258&hilit=thumb#p429258
chownah

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dylanj
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Re: Abortion and the first precept

Post by dylanj » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:04 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:30 am
dylanj wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:24 am
save the babies
It seems that before descent into the womb there are no babies according to the pali canon.
chownah
yes. & descent into the womb occurs at conception
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

TRobinson465
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Re: Abortion and the first precept

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:38 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:21 am
There is this; it's not a sutta, but it's an āgama. https://suttacentral.net/ea21.3/en/huye ... b-pasadika
I don't think abortion is ever referred to in the suttas.
It is in the vinaya. (if you count that as a sutta)
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

chownah
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Re: Abortion and the first precept

Post by chownah » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:43 am

dylanj wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:04 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:30 am
dylanj wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:24 am
save the babies
It seems that before descent into the womb there are no babies according to the pali canon.
chownah
yes. & descent into the womb occurs at conception
The usual definition for conception is the uniting of the egg and sperm which happens before the descent into the womb.
chownah

TRobinson465
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Re: Abortion and the first precept

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:43 am

I believe there are several jataka tales which describe a descent into the womb fairly early in pregnancy (before the woman shows any noticeable signs of pregnancy). And the Story of the Buddhas final rebirth of course describes his descent from Tusita into the womb of Queen Mahamaya fairly early in pregnancy as well. its safe to say abortion clearly breaks the first precept. something like morning-after is slightly debatable. But based on the ekottarikāgama 21.3 linked to above its most likely at or shortly after conception.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

James Tan
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Re: Abortion and the first precept

Post by James Tan » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:53 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:30 am
dylanj wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:24 am
save the babies
It seems that before descent into the womb there are no babies according to the pali canon.
chownah
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29714&p=429258&hilit=thumb#p429258


<
The buddha talks about "conception in a womb ". I want to clearly point out that the zygote is formed by the fusion of an egg and a sperm IN THE OVIDUCT (ALSO KNOWN AS FALLOPIAN TUBE) and NOT IN THE UTERUS (ALSO KNOWN AS THE WOMB). The buddha is talking about "conception in a womb". If someone wants to take that pali texts as being their guide then it seems that the zygote stage comes BEFORE there is "conception in a womb".
chownah
>

{ zygote stage comes BEFORE
there is "conception in a womb }

So, let's say that the Buddha was inaccurate in term of describing the process of conception .
However , in this era the abortion is not about
" aborting the zygote " does it ?

The question is , does aborting a fetus / a baby is violating the first precept which is unwholesome kamma ?!
If a person wants to abort a fetus or a baby or make a choice to do so or insisting that abortion is Not Killing is by definition incorrect .

If anyone decided to do so , then they have to understand the whole thing and prepare to accept the consequences .
:reading:

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Abortion and the first precept

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:19 am

Now that's settled, can this thread or topic please be merged with the other horrible abortion thread, and we can all move on?

gingercatni
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Re: Abortion

Post by gingercatni » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:26 am

Will wrote:
Sat May 11, 2013 3:55 pm
I did not find a thread on this important topic. So here is a little from Harvey's Introduction to Buddhist Ethics (313) to start us off. The definition of a human being is clear.
Given the Buddhist view of embryonic life, it is not surprising that causing an abortion is seen as a serious act:

When a monk is ordained he should not intentionally deprive a living being of
life, even if it is only an ant. Whatever monk deprives a human being of life,
even (antamaso) down to destroying an embryo (gabbha-patanam·upadaya), he
becomes not a (true) renouncer, not a son of the Sakiyans.

The penalty for a monk intentionally causing an abortion is permanent expulsion from the Sangha:

Whatever monk should intentionally deprive a human being of life . . . he is also
one who is defeated [in the monastic life], he is not in communion . . . Human
being means: from the mind’s first arising, from (the time of) consciousness
becoming first manifest in a mother’s womb until the time of death, here meanwhile
he is called a human being.
in the Majjhima Sutta verse 26 refers to abortion, basically the Buddha would not condone it.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:51 am

gingercatni wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:26 am
in the Majjhima Sutta verse 26 refers to abortion, basically the Buddha would not condone it.
I think you mean the Mahāsīla section of the Brahmajāla Sutta. Thomas Rhys Davids and Maurice Walshe understand viruddhagabbhakaraṇa as referring to the carrying out of abortions, but Bhikkhu Bodhi and the Thai translators follow the commentary which takes the (admittedly rather obscure) term as referring to an operation for preventing abortions. Anyhow, whichever it is, it's not something that a samaṇa should be doing to make a living, which is what the sutta's three sīla sections are concerned with.


Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
‘Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, earn their living by a wrong means of livelihood, by such debased arts as:

- arranging auspicious dates for marriages, both those in which the bride is brought in (from another family) and those in which she is sent out (to another family);
- arranging auspicious dates for betrothals and divorces;
- arranging auspicious dates for the accumulation or expenditure of money;
- reciting charms to make people lucky or unlucky;
- rejuvenating the fetuses of abortive women;
- reciting spells to bind a man’s tongue, to paralyze his jaws, to make him lose control over his hands, to make him lose control over his jaw, or to bring on deafness;
- obtaining oracular answers to questions by means of a mirror, a girl, or a god;
- worshipping the sun;
- worshipping Mahābrahmā;
- bringing forth flames from the mouth;
- invoking the goddess of luck;

— the recluse Gotama abstains from such wrong means of livelihood, from such debased arts.’


https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/dn1

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