Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Post by Hanzze » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:52 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Hanzze wrote: Its also very present for me, I see tousands doing that every Sila-day and continue their ways short after in busniess as usual, even while re-taking then, but they feel lighter in some how when they do it again after that ritual. And you know, its somehow quick done today, we are very mobile. Or did you just disagree with the second part of the sentence? That would be a great disagreement and give rise to much mudita. Nevertehnless the first part of the sentence could be even present.
You seem to be making a lot of judgements about the actions of others, what their motives are, and how effective their practice is. I don't think that is particularly helpful.

:anjali:
Mike
Mike, actually I like to come away from it and try to focus on what is really useful, and yes I observe and learn, seek and watch the results of actions. I am not a motive augur but not unable to count.

So the porpose was more about sharing possible ways of confession and re-taking of precepts for layman and not how this and that group perfomes there rites.

Therfore my invitation to share your motives rather that this rites.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16498
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:01 am

These things are useful because they are a reminder to continue to focus on the Dhamma.

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Post by Hanzze » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:08 am

Yes Mike as told before: "They are, they are. No offense, but just not in regard of the topic and not as a prerequisite to develope virtue for further attainmaints. If they are used as a kind of Bhavana, just be careful that they to not develope wrong views" What Dhamma will you like to focus on, it is Adhamma or a wrong directed mind at least.

Therfore its good if you explain it in detail. Sangha, Sangha, what does it mean. "My dear friends, please forgive me if I have done something wrong even if I have not seen it" and what about the others and what about the use in further development.

I am sure your thoughts are different.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6629
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:47 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
(BOW DOWN AND SAY):
Kāyena vācāya va cetasā vā,
Dhamme kukammaṃ pakataṃ mayā yaṃ,
Dhammo paṭiggaṇhatu accayantaṃ,
Kālantare saṃvarituṃ va dhamme.

Whatever bad kamma I have done to the Dhamma
by body, by speech, or by mind,
may the Dhamma accept my admission of it,
so that in the future I may show restraint toward the Dhamma.
In our Wat (and in a group I attended in Hong Kong for several months a few years ago) one bows down and kind of mutters it into the floor... So, as Cittasanto says, it's essentially a personal reflection.

:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike,
Yeah, I know it is common, but I was refering to one example, although I think I got the particular formulae shown above without the individual confessions from an Ajahn lee's book?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6629
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:54 pm

Hanzze wrote:My dear Oncle Cittasanto,
thanks also for your aditional shares, I guess some are really helpful for many. It's just that you maybe draw a to hard line between need/can/should/should not in reagard of Layman and Bhikkhu. A layman does not have any rules to observe at all, he can even live like a Bhikkhu without doning anything wrong, if he makes it with good intentions and some amount of wisdom.
I did not know I was yours, and what the hell is a oncle?
You assume i am drawing lines, pointing something out is not drawing a line.
Lay-people do certainly have precepts to uphold. and who said people can not live like anything? you need to understand the difference between what you think and how things are!
have you tried to sincerely do what you are claiming is ineffective from a Buddhist angle.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Post by Hanzze » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:18 pm

My Young Oncle Cittasanto,

please explain me how things are. Impermanemt, unpersonal, unsatisfactory, conditioned or is this an different case?

there are places on earth where layman had addopt may things from Buddhas wisdom and tradtion. For expample form of address. Where I am, its usal to put others higher or minimum reargding to their age (older or younger, you might remember Buddhas advices). So I would need call you puu (which is equal to young oncle), I you prefer to be called big brother it'S also ok.
Preaching people are normaly addressed as "lok ta" which is equal to "respectable Grandfather". "Lok" is an adress like lord or sir, while "ta" refers to grandfather or wise. To attach "my" is one more addition to express the bond. I thought that "my respectable Grandfather" would be maybe to heavy to bear for you. My young oncle is a very polite adressing at least as I guess your are not so old.

But since they also learn english here ther got more and more the idea of all are equal, ther is just you and me left. Respectful adressing is that is even disgusting felt in such sociaties, totaly contrary of what the Buddha had taught. Even in my language the english way has much influnces and old tradtional ways are lost. There is only one person left, "I".

So it is actually with many things in a Buddhist colored sociaty, of couse mostly things are just done traditional like the stanza we discussed above. Sometimes later we can also addopt it with heart, which is much more difficult if it was not learned in young years. If one one dayrelays totaly on the Sangha, don't use or hurt something outside the sangha anymore, that is perfect, that 100% refuge. Till this day it's a nice tradtion or a way to keep the own (my, our) community united which has sometimes less to do with the Sangha.

That is why such stanzas are recitated just traditional (normaly People even don't knowing the meaning), but when good usuals and understaning will come together one day, they are perfect. To be part of the (formal) Sangha one day is mosty the ambition, even it is only in old age.

Its just difficult if we take the stick always only just on one side, thinking we know. The other side will not come up. So here we usually train intelectually on the other side of the stick. Maybe we understand intellectually that we need to lift the stick in the middle.

So if I had done you harm with calling you my uncle, pleace tell me. Maybe we can even make a reconciliation.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6629
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:54 pm

Hanzze
Are you talking in an enviroment where the customs of address of one place in the world is appropriate?
You do not need to address me in any way other than by name, particularly a way outside the norm of this environment, it is inappropriate.

There is what is given, and what you insert.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Post by Hanzze » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:12 am

Cittasanto wrote:Hanzze
Are you talking in an enviroment where the customs of address of one place in the world is appropriate?
You do not need to address me in any way other than by name, particularly a way outside the norm of this environment, it is inappropriate.

There is what is given, and what you insert.
Sorry my Oncle Cittasanto, I thought it is a Buddhist enviroment here. Respect is always something given but it has it's roots by ones old deeds as well.

You brought the sample of the stanza, which is exactly the same. I just used the adress sample to understand a little about addopting tradtions. I guess it's not the best for a good layman enviroment even it is tradtional done (addopted for Bhikkhus) but not proper.

Adressing respectable respectful in accordiance to their age and wisdom is Dhamma work (Apacayana) and should not be done out of faith.
Apacayana (Paying Respect)

Apacayana means paying respects to those who excel you in age, morality, integrity, wisdom, virtue, etc. Paying respects to elderly persons such as your father, mother, uncle, aunt; offering your seat and making way for those worthy of respect; bowing your head and showing humility, clasping your palms in homage to Bhikkhus, doffing your hat, saluting according to custom, etc. are all signs of respect. However, if you show respect unwillingly to a powerful person out of fear or with some selfish aim, this cannot be called apacayana, because it is pretentious in nature. It only amounts to maya (trickery).

Note:

Food for thought - bowing or curtseying is generally accepted as signs of reverence. In Myanmar some people put down whatever load they are carrying and prostate on the roads when they meet Bhikkhus. Some kneel down in the sidewalk or on the platform of a railway station to pay respects to monks and elderly persons. These actions if done with true sincerity, are not to be blamed. But in these days when people have to rush about in busy places, just a bow or a few humble words will suffice the need of apayacana. Kneeling down and prostrating in worshiping on meeting a Bhikkhu on the roads in a Bhikkhu on the roads or in busy crowded places in the presence of alien people are not really necessary.


And what I had told before, this practice of reciting this has less effects in regard of healthy confession, but is very well to train respect and also a meritious deed if it is in direction of the Sangha (not my sangha in this case)

How ever, it is maybe good if we drive more back to the topic. My little oncle Cittasanto, had shared a lot of good points before and little brother Hanzze would be really happy if my little oncle Cittasanto would explain more or share more own experiances in regard of the OP.

Thanks you my little oncle Cittasanto and please accept my apology if I had harmed you because I did not explain well. And please let little brother Hanzze know if we are her in an alien world, then it would be not from need.

But meanwhile I like to add a sutta Santa100 kindly had posted on another topic in regard of sotapanna (Streamenter) and precepts but it might be also good here in reagrd of confession:
"The bhikkhu knows, I haven’t undispelled hindrances on account of which my mind would not see it, as it really is.These things are thoroughly dispelled from my mind and it is ready for realising the truth. This is the first noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary...

...Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, like a toddler who is slow to stand and lie would tred on a burning piece of charcoal and would instantly pull away from it. In the same manner when he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes amends for future restrain. This is a unique character of one come to righteousness of view. This is the fourth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

MN 48
Not to much posts training: 5. Post/ 4.10. 11:09 am (accordiny messurement: 8 posts the last 24h) current value: 9. post
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6629
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Post by Cittasanto » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:31 am

Hanzze wrote: Sorry my Oncle Cittasanto, I thought it is a Buddhist enviroment here. Respect is always something given but it has it's roots by ones old deeds as well.

You brought the sample of the stanza, which is exactly the same. I just used the adress sample to understand a little about addopting tradtions. I guess it's not the best for a good layman enviroment even it is tradtional done (addopted for Bhikkhus) but not proper.

Adressing respectable respectful in accordiance to their age and wisdom is Dhamma work (Apacayana) and should not be done out of faith.
the environment may be buddhist, but it is not Thai, cambodian....
it is an english forum and the people you are speaking with although may use customs from a particular country when addressing someone from a tradition in that coulntry would not do it to people who are not, or adopt it into english for them. and that doesn't mean it carries the same meaning when translated into english.

certain things are impolite in certain context and polite in others.
Be one who knows the company they are in.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests