should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:49 am

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: I doubt you know what my opinion is.
You have been repeatedly voicing it here.
and you have repeatedly misrepresented what I have said from the start. so I highly doubt you know you do.
If I have misrepresented what you said, my apologies. Sometimes, however, you are not very clear in what you say.
" it doesn't say anything about continued use of such weapons after.
It doesn't. And since the gun is longer being used to kill animals or people, it is not used to intimidate anyone, it is not an issue.
the context is actually widened to more than just killing alone, or is "conscientious, sympathetic, compassionate for the good of all living beings" only about not killing, and not about other forms of ahimsa?
Yes, and the non-lethal, non-harming use of a gun for recreational use is not an issue.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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rowboat
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:49 am

tiltbillings: Not knowing a thing about the set up I use, you have not a clue as to what you are talking about.

Do you shoot your .22 rifle at thin aluminum cans indoors? Or do you shoot your .22 rifle at aluminum cans outdoors?
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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Doshin
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Doshin » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Doshin wrote:I'm not sure what you want to state by this. I only wanted to express my belief that reaching for a gun in the imaginary setup, I find it most likely to bring more killing/harming, then if one where to take a more mindfull approach.
Except, you do not know that. You can only hope that that would be so.
I have never claimed to know it for a fact. So your statement is void.

I think I will rest, agreeing that we disagree.
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:56 am

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:so with no modification (of use or power) the gun could not turned on a person and not cause (at least) injury?
although in this case as you are describing on a range, like I said that is (in my opinion) up to the person, but will only point to my earlier post quoted also. for my having a weapon (its design & purpose) while on the path is antithetical.
With no modification one's large butcher knife can be used to stab someone to death. Without any modification one's cricket bat can be used to bludgeon another to death and on and on.
Actually that would be a modification of purpose. I have highlighted the relevant line you missed!
I don't give a rat's tookus about the supposed "design and purpose." All that matters in the context of my using a gun is my motivation when I pick it up. The gun in the photo Ben uploaded, its "design and purpose" is solely target shooting. A car's design and purpose is transportation, but it can also be used as a lethal weapon. The "modification of purpose" is beside the point. What matters is what happens when the gun, the butcher knife, the cricket bat, etc is picked up.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:00 am

Doshin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Doshin wrote:I'm not sure what you want to state by this. I only wanted to express my belief that reaching for a gun in the imaginary setup, I find it most likely to bring more killing/harming, then if one where to take a more mindfull approach.
Except, you do not know that. You can only hope that that would be so.
I have never claimed to know it for a fact. So your statement is void.
Not at all. There Is enough real world evidence in various wars of medics being killed, field hospital being targeted in various ways. And given that the imaginary scenario is just that -- imaginary, there is nothing actual to know.
I think I will rest, agreeing that we disagree.
Sounds good.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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rowboat
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:02 am

tiltbillings: I don't give a rat's tookus...
A rat's tookus is exactly what I am concerned about! This is why I asked you whether you target shoot indoors or outdoors.

;)
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:06 am

rowboat wrote:
tiltbillings: I don't give a rat's tookus...
A rat's tookus is exactly what I am concerned about! This is why I asked you whether you target shoot indoors or outdoors.

;)
It is not an issue.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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rowboat
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:10 am

It is not an issue.
Do you mean that once the bullet has left the gun you feel it is no longer your responsibility or concern because your intention was to hit the target?
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:12 am

rowboat wrote: I'm glad you don't condone the killing. You are wrong about that euphemism.
Not at all. The shooter may be killing feral animals, likely cats, but it is essentially the population numbers that are being controlled.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:13 am

rowboat wrote:
It is not an issue.
Do you mean that once the bullet has left the gun you feel it is no longer your responsibility or concern because your intention was to hit the target?
Quite the opposite, which is why it is not an issue.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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rowboat
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:13 am

Of course I am in no way suggesting you are being careless about the safety of human beings when you target shoot. But I happen to treat the lives of birds, small mammals, and insects as being very important. I'm only assuming that this is a dimension to your well-enjoyed pastime which you haven't fully considered.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:17 am

rowboat wrote:Of course I am in no way suggesting you are being careless about the safety of human beings when you target shoot. But I happen to treat the lives of birds, small mammals, and insects as being very important. I'm only assuming that this is a dimension to your well-enjoyed pastime which you haven't fully considered.
Well, I would not assume that about me, but then since I know what I do, I don't have to worry about it. It is not an issue.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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rowboat
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:
rowboat wrote: I'm glad you don't condone the killing. You are wrong about that euphemism.
Not at all. The shooter may be killing feral animals, likely cats, but it is essentially the population numbers that are being controlled.
To talk about population "numbers" is just one more abstraction away from the fact that individual animals are being shot and killed. You cannot kill numbers.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

jason c
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by jason c » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:19 am

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Other than going over the same ground repeatedly, do we have anything new to say here?
Practicing Buddhists shouldn't talk about guns. :D
very, wise my friend. :namaste:

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:21 am

rowboat wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
rowboat wrote: I'm glad you don't condone the killing. You are wrong about that euphemism.
Not at all. The shooter may be killing feral animals, likely cats, but it is essentially the population numbers that are being controlled.
To talk about population "numbers" is just one more abstraction away from the fact that individual animals are being shot and killed. You cannot kill numbers.
Sure, and it is a way of keeping the population controlled.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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