should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Mr Man
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:16 am

Bodhisvasti wrote:
A young man prepared to defend his family and community through the use of a gun, when every other option has been exhausted isn't something to be proud of? Right. Because cowardice is the new thing of today. Common sense taught me that. The stories of my ancestors taught me that. The acts of brave men taught me that. Defending the helpless is always a virtuous act. And IMO, should be required by law, unless it would bring obvious harm to the helper.
Your rationalization is not convincing. Not sure what cowardice has to do with anything.

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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Truth_Seeker1989 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:19 am

Mr Man wrote:
Bodhisvasti wrote:
A young man prepared to defend his family and community through the use of a gun, when every other option has been exhausted isn't something to be proud of? Right. Because cowardice is the new thing of today. Common sense taught me that. The stories of my ancestors taught me that. The acts of brave men taught me that. Defending the helpless is always a virtuous act. And IMO, should be required by law, unless it would bring obvious harm to the helper.
Your rationalization is not convincing. Not sure what cowardice has to do with anything.
I have no idea how else to explain it, bud. A young man at twenty three who is prepared, 'after all peaceful options are exhausted', to defend his family and community, is a thing to be proud of. That is rational. A coward is the opposite of that.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).

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Cittasanto
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:20 am

Bodhisvasti wrote:There seems to be two sides here. One for pure pacifism, basically. And the other for responsible ownership of guns/weaponry for self defense,
if you think that then you need to understand life in another context outside of guns.

anything can be turned into a weapon for defensive purposes and if one has to pre-arm themselves it says one of two things, they are living in fear due to fabrications, or they actually live in a situation where the fear is real
like this
http://badassoftheweek.com/omari.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

surely practicing buddhists should be eliminating fear
SN 56.42 - Papata Sutta: The Drop-off translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at Vulture's Peak. Then he said to the monks, "Come, monks, let's go to Inspiration1 Peak for the day's abiding."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

Then the Blessed One together with a large number of monks went to Inspiration Peak. One of the monks saw the huge drop-off from Inspiration Peak and, on seeing it, said to the Blessed One, "Wow, what a huge drop-off! What a really huge drop-off!2 Is there any drop-off more huge & frightening than this?"

"There is, monk, a drop-off more huge & frightening than this."

"And which drop-off, lord, is more huge & frightening than this?"

"Any priests or contemplatives who do not know, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who do not know, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': They revel in (thought-) fabrications leading to birth; they revel in fabrications leading to aging; they revel in fabrications leading to death; they revel in fabrications leading to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Reveling in fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they fabricate fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Fabricating fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they drop over the drop-off of birth. They drop over the drop-off of aging... the drop-off of death... the drop-off of sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. They are not totally released from birth, aging, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. They are not totally released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"But as for any priests or contemplatives who do know, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who know, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': They don't revel in (thought-) fabrications leading to birth; don't revel in fabrications leading to aging; don't revel in fabrications leading to death; don't revel in fabrications leading to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Not reveling in fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they don't fabricate fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Not fabricating fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they don't drop over the drop-off of birth. They don't drop over the drop-off of aging, don't drop over the drop-off of death, don't drop over the drop-off of sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. They are totally released from birth, aging, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. They are totally released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"Therefore, monks, your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Mr Man
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:26 am

Bodhisvasti wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Bodhisvasti wrote:
A young man prepared to defend his family and community through the use of a gun, when every other option has been exhausted isn't something to be proud of? Right. Because cowardice is the new thing of today. Common sense taught me that. The stories of my ancestors taught me that. The acts of brave men taught me that. Defending the helpless is always a virtuous act. And IMO, should be required by law, unless it would bring obvious harm to the helper.
Your rationalization is not convincing. Not sure what cowardice has to do with anything.
I have no idea how else to explain it, bud. A young man at twenty three who is prepared, 'after all peaceful options are exhausted', to defend his family and community, is a thing to be proud of. That is rational. A coward is the opposite of that.
I can imagine George Zimmerman may have once said somthing similar. Is the US not yet tired of all this gun madness.

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Ben
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Ben » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:33 am

Cittasanto wrote:surely practicing buddhists should be eliminating fear
I agree, but there is a limit to how much one can take responsibility for the mind-states of others.
If one is a member of a gun club and one's gun is locked and only used at the gun club range under the regulations of the gun club then I believe that person is being responsible.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Cittasanto
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: the simple fact that hearing gun fire can be frightening for people, same way fireworks are frightening to animals when they go off, even if they can't see them.
And this has what to do with what? Some people are fearful of thunder. I have a friend who is terrified of frog and the sounds they make. I shoud not own a gun because there are people out there who are fearful of the sound of a gun?
No because we are walking a path of peace (supposedly)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:40 am

Doshin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
-So imagine a real life situation: you're a doctor serving in a war, treating a patient inside a tent. You're far from the door. An enemy soldier comes inside with his gun down. Now split this scenario in 3.

1- you have a gun
2- you have a knife
3- you have a rock

In which of these scenarios does the enemy soldier get killed? Can you still equate having a gun to having a rock?
And if I don't have a gun, the enemy soldier kills me and everyone else in the tent. I'll go with Gandhi on this.
Soldiers are trained to instinctively kill every threat. So if he sees you reach for a gun, he would kill you before thinking (that's his training). If he sees doctors uniforms and you with your hands up, he is much less likely to kill you. I don't think you stand a chance against a professional soldier pointing a gun at you, if you are a doctor reaching for a gun.

Even if you get the chance to kill him, he probably just is one in a big group of enemy soldiers; and their next step would probably be to just throw some handgrenades into your tent.
These things such this imagenary stuff are absurd. In the real world there have been 1-AO status individuals who have served for moral/religious reasons as unarmed medics who have in dire situations picked up a weapon to protect their wounded compatriots and themselves against an attacking enemy. The Vietcong was not big on taking prisoners during heavy firefights.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:43 am

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: the simple fact that hearing gun fire can be frightening for people, same way fireworks are frightening to animals when they go off, even if they can't see them.
And this has what to do with what? Some people are fearful of thunder. I have a friend who is terrified of frog and the sounds they make. I shoud not own a gun because there are people out there who are fearful of the sound of a gun?
No because we are walking a path of peace (supposedly)
Again, that is your opinion. I prefer my opinion. Because I own a gun and I use it occasionally to put holes in tin cans does not mean I am not established in walking a path of peace.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:43 am

Ben wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:surely practicing buddhists should be eliminating fear
I agree, but there is a limit to how much one can take responsibility for the mind-states of others.
If one is a member of a gun club and one's gun is locked and only used at the gun club range under the regulations of the gun club then I believe that person is being responsible.
kind regards,

Ben
Yes, there is only so much one can do, and that does sound responcible, however, what is the need to use, or have a devise which only has a destructive purpose as a practicing Buddhist?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Ben » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:55 am

Hi Cittasanto,
Cittasanto wrote:
Ben wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:surely practicing buddhists should be eliminating fear
I agree, but there is a limit to how much one can take responsibility for the mind-states of others.
If one is a member of a gun club and one's gun is locked and only used at the gun club range under the regulations of the gun club then I believe that person is being responsible.
kind regards,

Ben
Yes, there is only so much one can do, and that does sound responcible, however, what is the need to use, or have a devise which only has a destructive purpose as a practicing Buddhist?
Target shooting! Target shooting is a wholesome pursuit and Olympic sport!

And here is your Heather Fell (Silver medalist)
fellshooting.jpg
fellshooting.jpg (30.66 KiB) Viewed 1470 times
Not very destructive, unless you consider the perforation of paper targets destructive!
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Truth_Seeker1989 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:00 am

Cittasanto. Do you think Buddhism can survive on pacifism alone? If your Sangha is attacked by men bent only on your destruction, where they want nothing but the death of your religion, would you watch your people die? Can Buddhism survive that way? Judaism was under attack by the Nazis, and every jew would have been killed if it weren't for military intervention, do you deny that?

Buddhists are supposed to go beyond Dualistic thought, and see things for what they are. Here is things as they are.

Genocide exists. Terrorism exists. Situations where peaceful resolutions will simply 'not work', exist. Oppression due to the lack of military training/access to weaponry in the masses, exists.

I honestly want your opinion.

Do you deny those circumstances exist?

Do you honestly believe pacifism will solve those problems?

Would you watch your loved ones be hurt by weaponry, when you have access to it yourself, can end it, and choose not to use it?

I really do want your honest answers to all three of those questions.
Last edited by Truth_Seeker1989 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:04 am

Ben wrote:
Target shooting! Target shooting is a wholesome pursuit and Olympic sport!

And here is your Heather Fell (Silver medalist)
fellshooting.jpg
Not very destructive, unless you consider the perforation of paper targets destructive!
kind regards,

Ben
I would guess that those folks who have fear as a result of the sound of gun fire would stay far, far away from such an event.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Cittasanto
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: No because we are walking a path of peace (supposedly)
Again, that is your opinion. I prefer my opinion. Because I own a gun and I use it occasionally to put holes in tin cans does not mean I am not established in walking a path of peace.
I doubt you know what my opinion is. and I will stick with the Buddhas option not my own preferences
Visakhuposatha Sutta wrote:"'For all their lives the arahants dwell having abandoned killing living beings, refrain from killing living beings, they have laid down their staffs, laid down their weapons, they are conscientious, sympathetic, compassionate for the good of all living beings;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Ben
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Ben » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:11 am

Hi Tilt,

Yes, and I think the arising of fear is probably as a result of hearing a gun shot in an in-congruent context.
It would be normal to hear gun shots around a firing range. Likewise, in a rural location. Certainly where I work, some nights we have a local (licenced) shooter who comes on site controlling feral animals. When I hear him shooting, i have a different affective reaction if I am onsite alone than if he inadvertently happens to turn up to when the site is booked and inhabited by a large group of children.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Mr Man
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:14 am

Ben wrote:
Target shooting! Target shooting is a wholesome pursuit and Olympic sport!

Hi Ben
What do you think about the idea of owning a gun like a glock 19 for self defence purposes?

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