Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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ground
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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by ground » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:04 am

manasikara wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
danieLion wrote:"3) Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami.
I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct."

I can't get a clear idea of what sexual misconduct (kamesu micchacara) actually is.
It is indulging in sensual pleasures.
The Buddha's instructions are pretty clear. A layman is allowed to have sex with a woman who does not fall into any of the 'forbidden' category listed above, and still call himself a Buddhist. ...
anybody is allowed to do everything and call himself a Buddhist. Who or what may be a hindrance to do what one likes?

Did you get the written right?
What I said is that sexual misconduct is indulging in sensual pleasures.

If you can have sex without indulging in it why should it be sexual misconduct?


Kind regards

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ground
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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by ground » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:14 am

danieLion wrote:Thanks TMingyur,
TMingyur wrote:
danieLion wrote:"3) Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami.
I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct."

I can't get a clear idea of what sexual misconduct (kamesu micchacara) actually is.
It is indulging in sensual pleasures.
Sensual pleasure covers much more territory than sexual misconduct.
Yes. What I said is that sexual misconduct is, i.e. belongs to the category of "indulging in sensual pleasures".
danieLion wrote: But the indulgence piece suggests a line between non-indulgence and indulgence.
Exactly that's the point.
danieLion wrote: For instance, how many of us can say we clearly know the distinction between eating non-indulgently and eating indulgently?
That is why eating is of utmost importance. One can live without sex but not without eating.
danieLion wrote: So, can one have sex non-indulgently?
Good question. Isn't sexual desire desire for indulgence?
danieLion wrote: And does meditating involve the total absence of sensual pleasure?
Yes if its right meditation. In the beginning it may be defiled with habitual pleasure seeking.


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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by Yana » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:24 am

manas wrote:The Buddha expected strict abstinence from ALL forms of sexual gratification from his ordained bhikkhus, but he did not expect this of laypeople. We are not breaking 'Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami' if we look at pictures on the internet and masturbate to them (afaik), so long as those pictures are of women of legal age (ie over 18).

:anjali:
..so it's okay to look at dirty pictures in the internet and masturbate to them?..i don't know why that just doesn't seem right to me.I mean i may not know Everything the Buddha taught and my knowledge of Buddhism is very limited but..i have a conscience.i don't know..doesn't that count for something anymore?

i don't understand aren't we suppose to Not indulge in any behaviour that brings harm to ourselves and others?

By doing that don't you indulge in lust?How is that beneficial to your practice of morality?aren't you taking advantage of the men and women being degraded for your entertainment especially if the dirty pictures your refering to is porn.. not..say..your long term girlfriend sending you a little something something or your wife of 20 years.

Because when it comes to porn..I mean you don't really believe it's good for them...didn't you know porn workers have high suicide rates..this makes me very sad for them.Do you really think they are in a wholesome state of mind while performing these acts that are being photographed and recorded..Do you really think it's not bringing some type of physical and mental harm to them and their familes as well.They are harmed by your consumption and you are harmed as well.Your mental state especially.

I mean Really. you don't need the Buddha to tell you looking at dirty pictures and using it to masturbate is unskillful behaviour :namaste:
Life is preparing for Death

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robertk
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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by robertk » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:05 am

Yana is having sex with your husband unskilful behaviour?
is looking at your wifes naked body unskilful?
Is enjoying a beautiful sunset unskilful?
Is liking the taste of some foods unskilful?

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robertk
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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by robertk » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:10 am

[quote="Yana...didn't you know porn workers have high suicide rates..:[/quote]

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan01/suicide.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Suicide by profession: lots of confusion, inconclusive data





Police officers end their lives more often than those in other professions, right? Or is it dentists? Or psychologists?

Assertions about which occupational group has the most suicides float around like urban myths.

Various occupational groups have called the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS), each to confirm that their occupation has the highest rates of suicide, says Jim Weed, NCHS analyst.

But experts on suicide say that statistics on its relation to occupation are not clear. There is no national data set on occupation and suicide. Local studies indicate elevated rates in different occupations, but the data usually "turn out to be frail," says prominent suicide researcher David Clark, PhD.

And in fact, points out Ronald Maris, PhD, director of the Center for the Study of Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior at the University of South Carolina, "Occupation is not a major predictor of suicide and it does not explain much about why the person commits suicide."

One of the largest studies in the area was conducted by the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) in 1995, which concluded that there is a higher suicide rate in the medical field. But beyond that, NIOSH researchers said, the picture is equivocal: Often the studies are only of one geographic area, sometimes they have methodological problems, and sometimes they contradict each other.

That's in great part because the statistics are surprisingly difficult to gather. Only about half the states put occupation on their death certificates. And even when they do, there are questions as to whether the physician, medical examiner or coroner filling in the certificates always gets the occupation or the cause of death right.

In addition, statistical conclusions are hampered by the fact that when the 30,000 annual U.S. suicides are divided into occupations, the numbers for many job categories are relatively small.

Some larger studies in the last few years provide at least some thought-provoking questions about connections between jobs and suicide. For example, in 1997, NIOSH and other government agencies analyzed 1980-84 death certificates by all occupations and causes of death, and found statistically significant elevated rates of suicide for:

White male physicians.

Black male guards (including supervisors, crossing guards, police, protective service occupations, but not correctional institution occupations).


White female painters, sculptors, craft-artists and artist printmakers.


In another study, a sociology researcher at the University of California, Riverside, Augustine Kposowa, PhD, looked at records over nine years for about half a million people of whom 545 committed suicide. After controlling for such variables as age, income, race, marital status and region of residence, he found that only laborers and the unemployed had significantly higher risks.

On the other hand, he found "dramatic" differences for suicide among the industries where people work. At highest risk were those in mining, business and repair services, wholesale and retail trade and construction.

In the end, say some researchers, occupation may not be much of a factor in suicide. Psychologists have long documented that among the top predictors for suicide are diagnosable mental disorder, co-morbid substance use, loss of social support and availability and access to a firearm.

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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by Yana » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:49 am

robertk wrote:Yana is having sex with your husband unskilful behaviour?
is looking at your wifes naked body unskilful?
Is enjoying a beautiful sunset unskilful?
Is liking the taste of some foods unskilful?

i don't understand why your asking me all these questions?
I said looking at dirty pictures on the internet while masturbating is unskillfull.I'm not refering to anything other than looking at dirty pictures on the internet while masturbating is unskillfull. :namaste:
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Dan74
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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by Dan74 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:24 am

I think that all of the replies above are right and many good points are being made here.

I would consider them carefully, openly and thoughtfully.

As for porn, etc - we've had threads on that already. Suffice it to say that guilt is counter-productive. Best to examine attentively for oneself: what does it really feel like? Does this lead to wholesome states of mind. Just like with everything else.

That way we broaden and deepen our awareness which makes it easy to let go.
_/|\_

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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by Ben » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:34 am

Yana,
What is a "dirty" picture?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by Yana » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:23 am

Ben wrote:Yana,
What is a "dirty" picture?
kind regards,

Ben
Hi Ben :smile: ..i was using the term (dirty picture) used by the original poster.

To me personally a "dirty" picture would mean any sexually explicit pictures used to indulge in sexual pleasures at the expense of another human being being degraded or exploited.

I would call that dirty.

I don't think that looking at sexual pictures of someone you love and are in a relationship is dirty because they are not suffering when they do that.

I mean this is just what i think..it''s how i view "dirty"..i don't know if it's right or wrong..and ofcourse i don't mean to make Anybody feel guilty.. :console: i mean we've all been there..well i know i have..and it just made me sad.Very sad.
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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:33 am

Just thought I would note that everyone seems to be missing something about this quote (posted earlier):
Before turning to our main theme, it is as well to have some idea of the sexual mores of ancient India in the Buddha's time. Gotama himself, as a prince, was brought up surrounded by concubines and dancing-girls as a matter of course. Polygamy was common. Ambapali, the courtesan from whom the Buddha accepted gifts, was a person of some consequence. It was not expected that young men would lead a life of much restraint, and the Buddha with his profound understanding of human nature knew well what demands to make of people in this respect. Thus we find the following formulation of what a man should avoid:
He avoids unlawful sexual intercourse, abstains from it. He has no intercourse with girls who are still under the protection of father or mother, brother, sister, or relative; nor with married women, nor female convicts; nor lastly with betrothed girls.

source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el225.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Women in ancient India were explicitly under male control, perhaps amounting almost to male ownership, in a way which is strange to most of us but was absolutely normal in biblical society (remember the bit about not coveting the neighbour's wife or ox or ass?) and in Western society until relatively recently (when were American women first allowed to own property in their own right? to vote?). That makes the bolded rule in the above quote roughly equivalent to, "He stays off other men's property."
:thinking:

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by Yana » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:39 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:Just thought I would note that everyone seems to be missing something about this quote (posted earlier):
Before turning to our main theme, it is as well to have some idea of the sexual mores of ancient India in the Buddha's time. Gotama himself, as a prince, was brought up surrounded by concubines and dancing-girls as a matter of course. Polygamy was common. Ambapali, the courtesan from whom the Buddha accepted gifts, was a person of some consequence. It was not expected that young men would lead a life of much restraint, and the Buddha with his profound understanding of human nature knew well what demands to make of people in this respect. Thus we find the following formulation of what a man should avoid:
He avoids unlawful sexual intercourse, abstains from it. He has no intercourse with girls who are still under the protection of father or mother, brother, sister, or relative; nor with married women, nor female convicts; nor lastly with betrothed girls.

source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el225.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Women in ancient India were explicitly under male control, perhaps amounting almost to male ownership, in a way which is strange to most of us but was absolutely normal in biblical society (remember the bit about not coveting the neighbour's wife or ox or ass?) and in Western society until relatively recently (when were American women first allowed to own property in their own right? to vote?). That makes the bolded rule in the above quote roughly equivalent to, "He stays off other men's property."
:thinking:

:namaste:
Kim
oh i didn't know that!...thank you Kim..helps me see it through their perspective! :namaste:
Life is preparing for Death

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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:51 am

Yana wrote: oh i didn't know that!...thank you Kim..helps me see it through their perspective! :namaste:
Hello, Yana,
It isn't nice but it is important.
If we don't know, or choose to ignore, the differences between societies we can make some serious mistakes.

:namaste:
Kim

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reflection
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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by reflection » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:07 pm

It's not about what the precepts say (or what the culture was), it is how we feel about the precepts. The precepts are not rules; they are guidelines. We have to look inside to see how they could apply in our life. If we feel ok about lying for example, we will probably not stop it nomatter what a precept says. However, if we reflect on it and see the downsides of it, we will probably lessen it. It will not totally stop in one step; the precepts evolve in our life.

The same with drugs and sex. At first we might stop doing the extremes, but when they evolve when we are on the path, we may also tend to stop with any drink and/or masturbation & pornography. However, it is personal and so there is no clear line between what you should and shouldn't do.

Aside from that, both drinking and sexual activity are sensual desires.. they will never fullfill us.

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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by Ben » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:03 pm

reflection wrote:It's not about what the precepts say (or what the culture was), it is how we feel about the precepts. The precepts are not rules; they are guidelines. We have to look inside to see how they could apply in our life. If we feel ok about lying for example, we will probably not stop it nomatter what a precept says. However, if we reflect on it and see the downsides of it, we will probably lessen it. It will not totally stop in one step; the precepts evolve in our life.

The same with drugs and sex. At first we might stop doing the extremes, but when they evolve when we are on the path, we may also tend to stop with any drink and/or masturbation & pornography. However, it is personal and so there is no clear line between what you should and shouldn't do.

Aside from that, both drinking and sexual activity are sensual desires.. they will never fullfill us.
Well, there is a lot to be said for sense restraint.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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reflection
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Re: Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

Post by reflection » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:25 pm

Yes of course, but if we don't understand ourselves why it will be useful, it will not make a lot of sense. That's why we should not take the Buddha's words as a law, but investigate them ourselves. When we do that, the discussions of what he actually meant also become less important because we can rely on our own judgement.

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