Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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DooDoot
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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:19 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:41 pm
Would he attach such importance to what he would consider to be a mere ceremony?
When you join Dhammawheel forum, you enter into a formal contract to follow the rules (TOU). Marriage is similar. It is a formal pact of commitment and not being married may indicate underlying delusions or wrong views about the nature of relationship. In my readings of the suttas, I have only read sex spoken of positively in terms of 'marriage'.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:20 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:41 pm
Would he attach such importance to what he would consider to be a mere ceremony?
When you join Dhammawheel forum, you enter into a formal contract to follow the rules (TOU). Marriage is similar. It is a formal pact of commitment and not being married may indicate underlying delusions or wrong views about the nature of relationship. In my readings of the suttas, I have only read sex spoken of positively in terms of marriage.

So a ceremony is important?

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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:22 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:20 pm
So a ceremony is important?
I do not recall mentioning "ceremony". I recall I essentially mentioned a formal contract or vows of commitment. You parents may not believe they are married but at least, for their sake, secular society imputes a "defacto marriage" relationship upon them so they don't create potential troubles for themselves in their contractual negligence.

Recently, in Australia, the cry-baby Cultural Marxists forced Australians to vote on gay marriage with a loaded two (rather than three) option ballot-paper. I voted against it; even though most dupes voted for it. In non-religious society, gays lobby for gay marriage. But on religious forums, gays seem to lobby against marriage. :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:32 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:22 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:20 pm
So a ceremony is important?
I do not recall mentioning "ceremony". I recall I essentially mentioned a formal contract or vows of commitment. You parents may not believe they are married but at least, for their sake, secular society imputes a "defacto marriage" relationship upon them so they don't create potential troubles for themselves in their contractual negligence.

I have no idea what they promised each other. Likely they never made formal declarations. They just stayed together.
Recently, in Australia, the cry-baby Cultural Marxists forced Australians to vote on gay marriage with a loaded two (rather than three) option ballot-paper. I voted against it; even though most dupes voted for it. In non-religious society, gays lobby for gay marriage. But on religious forums, gays seem to lobby against marriage. :roll:
Are we allowed to get into politics here?

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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:35 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:32 pm
Are we allowed to get into politics here?
Its not politics. I was merely commenting on your personal behavior; how gays celebrated in Australia about gay marriage, even though Australia is not majority religious. But you come here and appear post against marriage.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:35 pm

I did ask them once why they never got married. They just said they didn’t feel like they needed a ceremony and a bit of paper to cement their relationship.

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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:37 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:32 pm
Are we allowed to get into politics here?
Its not politics. I was merely commenting on your personal behavior; how gays celebrated in Australia about gay marriage, even though Australia is not majority religious. But you come here and appear post against marriage.
I’m all for lifelong monogamous commitment. If that needs to be within a formal arrangement or not is what I’m digging into.

And by the way, gay marriage isn’t just a left wing thing. Libertarians have been supporting it for years as well. Centrists/classical liberals aren’t “cry baby cultural Marxists”.

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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:39 pm

:focus:

(talk about the institution/arrangements of marriage is appropriate - talk about cry-baby Cultural Marxists, referendums etc. is not)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:39 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:35 pm
They just said they didn’t feel like they needed a ceremony and a bit of paper to cement their relationship.
Sure. But historically, marriage is much more than a mere agreement or mutual permission of two people to copulate or fornicate. Marriage is an inherent contract or symbol of the larger family unit & society. The Buddha said:
If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons, and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of other honored persons."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
Formal marriage appears to help create an unconfused society.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:46 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:35 pm
They just said they didn’t feel like they needed a ceremony and a bit of paper to cement their relationship.
Sure. But historically, marriage is much more than a mere agreement or mutual permission of two people to copulate or fornicate. Marriage is an inherent contract or symbol of the larger family unit & society. The Buddha said:
If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons, and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of other honored persons."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
Formal marriage appears to help create an unconfused society.

I don’t understand how that sutta backs your argument?

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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:53 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:46 pm
I don’t understand how that sutta backs your argument?
I refers to a "protected society" when certain women are regarded as: "mother... maternal aunt ... maternal uncle's wife... teacher's wife ... wives of other honored persons... etc"
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:54 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:46 pm
I don’t understand how that sutta backs your argument?
I refers to a "protected society" when certain women are regarded as: "mother... maternal aunt ... maternal uncle's wife... teacher's wife ... wives of other honored persons... etc"

Yes, I can see that. How does that back up your initial point?

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DooDoot
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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:58 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:54 pm
How does that back up your initial point?
Which initial point? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:19 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:58 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:54 pm
How does that back up your initial point?
Which initial point? :shrug:
The sutta you referenced doesn’t back up your claim that marriage helps to create an unconfused society. Can you explain how it does?

As to your earlier point, I’m not arguing against people being married. I am putting forward that people can enter into long term, committed and monogamous relationships without formally being married. The question of gay marriage is separate. Gay marriage should be legalised so that gays who wish to enter into marriage have the liberty to do so. To have a ban on gay marriage is to violate their human rights. I’m even open to privatising marriage and removing the state from it altogether. Of course, most social conservatives hate this idea as most social conservatives are as authoritarian as their leftist counterparts. Both are different forms of the social justice warrior phenomenon, but this is getting too far into politics.

Getting back to the Dhamma, I don’t see why if confronted with a heterosexual couple in a life long and monogamous relationship the Buddha would chastise their relationship. The same for a homosexual couple who were in a lifelong and committed monogamous relationship, married or not.

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DooDoot
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Re: Theravada and Sex: Sexual Misconduct

Post by DooDoot » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:41 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:19 pm
The sutta you referenced doesn’t back up your claim that marriage helps to create an unconfused society. Can you explain how it does?
60+ years ago, when children grew up with the only sexual option of becoming a wife, husband, father, mother, etc, similar to their parents, life was very unconfusing. How society was structured and perceived was very unconfusing. When married partners saw their primary role to be parents, they were very unconfused. When women were looked upon as wives, mothers, etc. it was unconfusing.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:19 pm
I am putting forward that people can enter into long term, committed and monogamous relationships without formally being married.
My impression is you are attempting a Cultural Marxist weaponized assault upon the Dhamma. :jedi:
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:19 pm
Gay marriage should be legalised so that gays who wish to enter into marriage have the liberty to do so.
Society can arrange an alternate to gay marriage, such as "civil union", and retain the term "marriage" for the contract of child bearing & parenting. This keeps things unconfused for the children.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:19 pm
To have a ban on gay marriage is to violate their human rights.
Sure, its like saying banning pedophilia or banning a so-called "homeland" for Kurdish ex-refugees in Syria violates human rights. This Cultural Marxist arguments & jargon are pretty old now. All around the world, voting for Hippy Governments is declining. Cultural Marxism is on the way out.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:19 pm
I’m even open to privatising marriage and removing the state from it altogether.
Yes, more Cultural Marxism. More viewing marriage from the narcissistic point of view rather than viewing marriage as the basic building block of civil society.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:19 pm
Of course, most social conservatives hate this idea as most social conservatives are as authoritarian as their leftist counterparts. Both are different forms of the social justice warrior phenomenon, but this is getting too far into politics.
:focus:
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:19 pm
Getting back to the Dhamma, I don’t see why if confronted with a heterosexual couple in a life long and monogamous relationship the Buddha would chastise their relationship. The same for a homosexual couple who were in a lifelong and committed monogamous relationship, married or not.
In DN 31, the Buddha taught about the six directions of society, which included "husbands & wives" and not heterosexual couples living in sin nor included any kind of homosexual relationship. As I originally posted, I imagine the Buddha would say unmarried so-called committed couples have a distortion of view. As I already posted, it is fortunate intelligent society has deemed such (negligent) couples as "defacto" thus to protect/create legal rights for them (in the event of separation, etc).
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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