Listening to music generates demerit

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Everaldo
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Listening to music generates demerit

Post by Everaldo » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:16 pm

Listening to music generates demerit (bad deeds, bad kamma)? Listening to music breaks the precepts of virtue? Who listens to music becomes a bad person? Does listening to music generate demerit as much as killing and stealing?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:25 pm

Everaldo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:16 pm
Listening to music generates demerit (bad deeds, bad kamma)?
I don't think so, no. It might according to some Buddhists be a waste of time, or lead to a heightened reliance on sense-perceptions, but it is not proscribed for lay people.
Listening to music breaks the precepts of virtue?
Lay followers on eight or ten precepts deny themselves music; those on five allow themselves music.
Who listens to music becomes a bad person?
My personal experience doesn't support that; I know some musicians and people who listen to lots of music who are very good people.
Does listening to music generate demerit as much as killing and stealing?
Making an inference from the precepts, my own personal experience, and what the Buddha seemed most concerned to steer us away from, I would say no.

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Volovsky
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by Volovsky » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:59 pm

Everaldo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:16 pm
Listening to music generates demerit (bad deeds, bad kamma)?
If one has taken 8/10 precepts, then yes. If one keeps general 5, then no (unless he/she listens music with greed, hate or delusion, which is actually often the case, but even then the demerit would be quite small, probably).

auto
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by auto » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:02 pm

Everaldo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:16 pm
Listening to music generates demerit (bad deeds, bad kamma)? Listening to music breaks the precepts of virtue? Who listens to music becomes a bad person? Does listening to music generate demerit as much as killing and stealing?
its rather that you listen music is like drunkard person on a family dinner, you don't know your place and don't know appreciate it. So your listening music could indeed cultivate demerit.

Same goes to some people who decide to go vegetarian and top of it when they propagate it they generate loads more demerit. Just add here any activity..

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seeker242
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by seeker242 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:36 pm

Does listening to music generate demerit as much as killing and stealing?
Certainly not. It's not that music generates demerit, it's that music is part of the 'five strings of sensuality'. If someone is actively trying to sever the five strings of sensuality', one should not give support to the opposite of the severing. For someone who is training in sense restraint, AKA monastics, it's not appropriate to do the opposite of that. It's not a matter of ethics, it's a matter of renunciation.

santa100
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by santa100 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:25 pm

Everaldo wrote:Listening to music generates demerit (bad deeds, bad kamma)? Listening to music breaks the precepts of virtue? Who listens to music becomes a bad person? Does listening to music generate demerit as much as killing and stealing?
As others have mentioned, depending on how many precepts you're following. However, regardless of the number of precepts, one obvious issue when listening to too much music is that it could interfere or even hamper your meditation effort and progress. Imagine you're sitting still trying to settle your mind during meditation at night and those pesky earworms keep popping up because you listened to some catchy tunes during the day.

Slowlearner5
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by Slowlearner5 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:42 pm

Making participating and dancing to a rythm is also an object of concentration and good for the body and more, I believe, and can be a good preparation for natural attainments. African peoples have been reaching attainments before formal meditation culture developed in my opinion. I know it's a Buddhist forum but why not mention natural states were attained by other methods from the time before Buddha.
Disclosure, I have been to Africa and met a Sangoma who reiterated that her disciples dance for hours most nights!
Therefore some music and rythm is all fine and in our DNA in my opinion.
Can mention chanting in Hinduism too.

auto
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by auto » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:03 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:36 pm
Does listening to music generate demerit as much as killing and stealing?
Certainly not. It's not that music generates demerit, it's that music is part of the 'five strings of sensuality'. If someone is actively trying to sever the five strings of sensuality', one should not give support to the opposite of the severing. For someone who is training in sense restraint, AKA monastics, it's not appropriate to do the opposite of that. It's not a matter of ethics, it's a matter of renunciation.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Suppose there were a man of yours: your slave, your workman, rising in the morning before you, going to bed in the evening only after you, doing whatever you order, always acting to please you, speaking politely to you, always watching for the look on your face.
The thought would occur to him: 'Isn't it amazing? Isn't it astounding? — the destination, the results, of meritorious deeds. For this King Ajatasattu is a human being, and I, too, am a human being, yet King Ajatasattu enjoys himself supplied and replete with the five strings of sensuality — like a deva, as it were — while I am his slave, his workman... always watching for the look on his face. I, too, should do meritorious deeds. What if I were to shave off my hair and beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?'
King is supplied and replete with the five strings of sensuality like a deva. That is a result of meritorious deeds(past offerings you have done) When you are able to listen music, you are like a king. Music is provided to you(as a result of your past offerings).
"So after some time he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness. Having thus gone forth he lives restrained in body, speech, and mind, content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude.
Just simply quit listening music is wrong imo; because you are not the provider but the ruler who has earned his results by past deeds
"Not at all, lord. Rather, I am the one who should bow down to him, rise up out of respect for him, invite him to a seat, invite him to accept gifts of robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medicinal requisites for the sick. And I would provide him with righteous safety, defense, and protection."
It is a servant, provider who goes recluse not the ruler.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by salayatananirodha » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:42 pm

Yes, it generates pamāda, which is carelessness. If it's delighted in, a cycle of addiction comes into play. Renouncing it is the only way to ensure that craving for sounds will cease. Nibbāna is the goal of buddhism and it is the destruction of craving.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html wrote:For a person to indulge in sensual pleasures without sensual passion, without sensual perception, without sensual thinking: That isn't possible.
Screen Shot 2018-12-05 at 14.42.02.png
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16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Mkoll
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by Mkoll » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:53 pm

Everaldo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:16 pm
Listening to music generates demerit (bad deeds, bad kamma)? Listening to music breaks the precepts of virtue? Who listens to music becomes a bad person? Does listening to music generate demerit as much as killing and stealing?
No. Bad deeds are the 10 courses of unwholesome action, see MN 41 for example. Killing and stealing are included in those and they lead to very poor outcomes. Enjoying music is motivated by craving for sensual desire and thus produces dukkha, but it's not nearly the same magnitude as killing and stealing.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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dylanj
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by dylanj » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:28 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:25 pm


Lay followers on eight or ten precepts deny themselves music; those on five allow themselves music.

not to be nitpicky but it's not necessarily one or the other...i only aim for the 5 precepts full-time at the moment but i never listen to music voluntarily & haven't for a very long time. it's relatively easy to become dispassionate with in my experience
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:54 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:28 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:25 pm


Lay followers on eight or ten precepts deny themselves music; those on five allow themselves music.

not to be nitpicky but it's not necessarily one or the other...i only aim for the 5 precepts full-time at the moment but i never listen to music voluntarily & haven't for a very long time. it's relatively easy to become dispassionate with in my experience
Of course. One can if one wishes maintain restraint regarding any other additional sense-pleasures or activities, in addition to the preceptual ones. Some people have difficulty giving up music, but I'm glad it's going well for you.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:16 am

I just received this in my in-box: a "Buddhist Cantata". You can tell from the words that it is about the Four Noble Truths.



The British composer Ronald Corp, despite being an Anglican Catholic minister, has also set Buddhist texts to music. From wikipedia:
An interest in Buddhist literature is reflected in his setting of parts of the Dhammapada (2010) for eight solo singers (or SATB choir) interspersed with recordings of bells at temples sacred to the Buddha; and the cycle Songs of the Elder Sisters (from the Therigatha) for mezzo-soprano, baritone, alto flute, clarinet and viola. The latter was recorded in February 2012 with Sarah Castle (mezzo-soprano) and Sam Evans (baritone) while Dhammapada had been recorded and released by Stone Records in 2011.

Andrew Stewart writes: "How does the composer respond to those who question why a Christian minister was drawn to set a fundamental Buddhist text? Dhammapada, he says, was created to open dialogue among faiths: 'It’s about inviting people to open their ears and minds to spirituality. These words, thought to be by the Buddha himself, tell us essential truths, which stand against cynical and untrusting ways of seeing the world and our place in it.' Dhammapada contemplates the corrupting force of material things and the transience of wealth, beauty and power.
Corp is a very talented composer, but "Buddhist music" always seems a bit odd to me; an alien concept.

auto
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by auto » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:24 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:28 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:25 pm


Lay followers on eight or ten precepts deny themselves music; those on five allow themselves music.

not to be nitpicky but it's not necessarily one or the other...i only aim for the 5 precepts full-time at the moment but i never listen to music voluntarily & haven't for a very long time. it's relatively easy to become dispassionate with in my experience
virtues of a consummate monk

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
..
"He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and from watching shows.
"He abstains from wearing garlands and from beautifying himself with scents and cosmetics.
"He abstains from high and luxurious beds and seats.
"He abstains from accepting gold and money.
..
when you mention dispassion it is related to dependent origination,

the music listening is a food(nutriment) but not immediately dispassion rises and the state what comes after dispassion is to be reached when the being(risen from that nutriment) has ceased.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"One sees with right discernment, lord, that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a learner.
Ordinary people are not taken into order. Only who have heard the dhamma from blessed one.

Idk if it is useful for to follow precepts..even so with a face value because its written in a book.

manas
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Re: Listening to music generates demerit

Post by manas » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:32 pm

Everaldo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:16 pm
Listening to music generates demerit (bad deeds, bad kamma)? Listening to music breaks the precepts of virtue? Who listens to music becomes a bad person? Does listening to music generate demerit as much as killing and stealing?
Says who, please? First I've heard of it.

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