Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
binocular
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by binocular » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:55 pm

steve19800 wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:45 am
There is a true story where a couple just got married. Soon after marriage, the wife is diagnosed with certain illness by the doctor. To make it short, because of the illness, the wife is not allowed to have sexual intercourse. The husband, however, got permission from his wife that, if needed, he can have sexual intercourse with other woman to meet his biological need.

In this particular case, if the husband has sexual intercourse with other woman, does he break the 3rd precept? There are many answers to this question, since not all situations included in the Sutta, how do we know if the husband is breaking the third precept or not? Any thoughts will be great.
If one thinks that (non-procreative) sex is a "biological need", then one is firmly outside of the domain of Buddhism, and the issue of precepts does not apply.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:47 am

the third precept does not include infidelity, its if you go with someone else who has a spouse, i assume without said spouse's consent. in that sense, there is the breaking of a 'protection', and sexual misconduct pertains to other such bonds or protections as monastic vow of celibacy, being under the guardianship of one's parents, or being prohibited by law. if you cheat on your wife, which may or may not pertain to this situation, you have only facilitated someone else's violation, which is still wrong but in itself is not sexual misconduct. i think it has to do with inciting quarrels and disputes out of greed for the six senses
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:24 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:47 am
if you cheat on your wife... but in itself is not sexual misconduct.
Why? Because of how you personally decide to read one passage in the suttas but ignore other passages that pertain to the same subject?

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:08 am

oh, i was not aware of other such suttas. the information i used is in AN 10.176 and dhammika sutta. my very last sentence did not clarify the issue it can be disregarded
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by steve19800 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:23 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:47 am
being prohibited by law.
I find this term is tricky, what does women who are "protected by law" mean?

If the local laws prohibiting your sexual behavior, for example, no sexual intercourse outside marriage but you do it, does it mean you have sexual intercourse with those who are "protected by law" therefore breaking the third precept?
Last edited by steve19800 on Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:27 am

perhaps, good question
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:55 am

Hi Steve.
There are a couple of angles one can look at this from within the texts so I will deal with them.
Acording to the wording of the precept and other textual explanations of the precept the situation is not a breach even without her permission. Although if the situation was reversed it would be a breach of the precept for her technically according to sutta explanations.

As the textual explanations deal and explain things from a male perspective so long as the woman he had intercourse with did not fall into a protected status (basically anywas who isn't single, of legal age, or in custody) he is able to sleep with. personally I think the rexerse is also true for women but the texts do not specifically support this idea in any way.

There are stories in the texts of wives arranging for cortesans to dealwith their household duties (including sexual needs of their spouse) while they observe the 8 precepts for a while, and this can be assumed to be similar enough to this situation you describe to demonstrate an exception here acording to the applicability the vinaya has when new situations arise.

There are, in this situation, other things to consider. regardless of permission and intelectual understanding of the situation, this can lead to jealousy and upset. So applying the vinaya standard for new situations for precepts to the lay precepts (which I will assume this case is in a monogomous society relationship understanding) it is still not a breach of the precepts as the permission to open the relationship up has been given thus general current social standards do not apply in considering the precepts.

I would caution though that this situation can become out of hand with emotional dificulties.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:33 am

steve19800 wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:23 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:47 am
being prohibited by law.
I find this term is tricky, what does women who are "protected by law" mean?

If the local laws prohibiting your sexual behavior, for example, no sexual intercourse outside marriage but you do it, does it mean you have sexual intercourse with those who are "protected by law" therefore breaking the third precept?
I take it to mean in accordance with the laws of the land. so you make a good point with your question as adultary isn't necessarily illegal, i.e. the state wont prosecute seeking justice, but can be a legal justification for divorce... which I think most of the west hold that stance of legal justification and prosecutable in civil rather than criminal court without state sponsorship (it wont be a state funded legal case) the agreement of the spouse is the key factor here depending on the legal stance a country has.
In writing this I have read the wiki on adultery and particularly the part on punishments but have left my response above unedited in light of the information as I dont think it differs to abruptly from the information i learnt from reading that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery# ... constructs

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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by pilgrim » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:24 am

With or without consent of one's wife, sex outside marriage does not break the precepts as long as the sexual partner is not in the list of prohibited persons. That does not necessarily mean it is a skillful act. One can keep the 5 precepts yet live a very unskillful life. A person who is locked away in a jail cell in solitary confinement will not break the precepts. A drug pusher does not have a Right Livelihood but if he does not consume his own products he too does not break the precepts.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by JamesTheGiant » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:10 am

What a totally bizarre topic.
There is absolutely no reason a husband has to have sex with another woman. Just use your hand! Far better to masturbate often, than cause all sorts of emotional entanglements and trouble.
How absurd. :shrug:

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:49 am

pilgrim wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:24 am
With or without consent of one's wife, sex outside marriage does not break the precepts as long as the sexual partner is not in the list of prohibited persons. That does not necessarily mean it is a skillful act. One can keep the 5 precepts yet live a very unskillful life. A person who is locked away in a jail cell in solitary confinement will not break the precepts. A drug pusher does not have a Right Livelihood but if he does not consume his own products he too does not break the precepts.
Right. There's a legalistic side to the question, and a moral side. The legal side is satisfied by simple adherence or non-adherence to the precepts as stated. The moral side is much more subtle and complex, and would necessarily involve situation-specific adjustment.
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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:15 pm

there are arranged marriages, love-less marriages, open relationships, not to mention people getting off on seeing their partner with others.
just saying...

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:06 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:15 pm
there are arranged marriages, love-less marriages, open relationships, not to mention people getting off on seeing their partner with others.
just saying...
Maybe. But the ways of the world are not exactly the ways of Dhamma. AN 4.55. AN 4.53

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:16 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:15 pm
there are arranged marriages, love-less marriages, open relationships, not to mention people getting off on seeing their partner with others.
just saying...
Maybe.
Oh i am pretty sure this is a fact.

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Re: Sexual intercourse with other woman with the consent of wife

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:19 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:16 pm
Oh i am pretty sure this is a fact.
I'm pretty sure what I wrote is also fact, namely, the ways of Dhamma are not the same as the ways of the world (Mara).

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