Analytic meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Kaktus
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Analytic meditation

Post by Kaktus »

I wonder if there is any kind of formal analytic meditation within theravada. Some kind of meditation in which one looks intelectually on a specific subject. For example wheter it is more useful to surf on dhammawheel.com or rereading some of ones favorite suttas. Just to name some silly sample

Can this be called a meditation at all? Or is this just contemplative thinking on a cussion with eyes closed?

Please share your experiences or give me some place to read further.

Thank you all
English isn´t my native language. So please accept my apologies for my kind of spelling and grammar ;-)
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SeekingTruth
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by SeekingTruth »

Interesting question and I look forward to any answers provided.
"Just go into the center of the room, and put one chair in the center. Take the one seat in the center of the room, open the doors and windows, and see who comes to visit. You will witness all kinds of scenes and actors, all kinds of temptations and stories, everything imaginable. Your only job is to stay in your seat. You will see it arise and pass, and out of this, wisdom and understanding will come." —AJAHN CHAH
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legolas
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by legolas »

The suttas are full of analytical contemplations. However not everybody would agree.

The sutta below is hard evidence of analytical "meditation", that cannot in any way be mistaken for anything else. It also states quite clearly that this meditation will give rise to the factors of the path.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Slava
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by Slava »

How does one know that the results of his intellectual meditation are not distorted due to presence of desires and ill-will in the mind? I tend to agree with Ajahn Brahm that the mind has to be absolutely still before you can see things as they really are. So, perhaps it is better to start with Samadhi, otherwise you could end up speculating about stuff instead of gaining actual insights.
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Alex123
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by Alex123 »

Slava wrote:How does one know that the results of his intellectual meditation are not distorted due to presence of desires and ill-will in the mind? I tend to agree with Ajahn Brahm that the mind has to be absolutely still before you can see things as they really are. So, perhaps it is better to start with Samadhi, otherwise you could end up speculating about stuff instead of gaining actual insights.

It all depends on what you mean by "intellectual meditation". If it is speculating about "finitude or infinitude of the world" and other abstract things, then it is definitely against N8P.

But if this thinking is very circumspect around anicca, dukkha, anatta, so as to foster more revulsion & dispassion - then this thinking is good.


The Buddha has said that there are two kinds of thinking. Wholesome and unwholesome. So we need to avoid unwholesome thinking, not simply ALL thinking whatsoever.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The path is not about being thoughtless. Even worms do not think at all. This doesn't make them awakened or on the path of awakened. Thinking needs to be correct and with wisdom.


Also
"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 'Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, these thoughts of mine are blameworthy, these thoughts of mine result in stress.' As he is scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts, those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a young woman — or man — fond of adornment, would be horrified, humiliated, and disgusted if the carcass of a snake or a dog or a human being were hung from her neck; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 'Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, these thoughts of mine are blameworthy, these thoughts of mine result in stress.' As he is scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts, those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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legolas
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by legolas »

Slava wrote:How does one know that the results of his intellectual meditation are not distorted due to presence of desires and ill-will in the mind? I tend to agree with Ajahn Brahm that the mind has to be absolutely still before you can see things as they really are. So, perhaps it is better to start with Samadhi, otherwise you could end up speculating about stuff instead of gaining actual insights.
If you ever wondered how the Buddha instructed people to contemplate or recollect impermanence, anatta etc. then the following link would be helpful..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

What people would classify these days as "meditation" i.e. mindfulness with breathing is not actually mentioned until a hell of a lot of "thinking" has been done. Whatever benefits non Buddhists may gain from mindfulness with breathing they are negligible without a proper basis (view). A "technique" even mwb cannot result in attainment without right view, right view cannot be attained without a lot of composed and sustained thinking (unless you are very special). If a certain meditation would lead automatically to attainment then that would have been the only thing the Buddha needed to teach. All you would need is a bit of sila and half a page of meditation instructions and we would all be stream winners. As it is we need to think & contemplate the Buddha's teachings, we need to inspire ourselves and be inspired by others, we need to generate desire for the path and faith in the 3 jewels. I could go on and on about the things I believe we need to reach stream entry but needless to say they all involve thinking. People who practice the type of thinking the Buddha teaches will find that their minds are quietened and thinking does die down, but you now have a basis of right view on wich to rely on. One of my favourite teachers says...............
"Tranquility is produced by relaxation of the body and experiencing the comfortable feeling of relaxation. It is a resting of the mind, due to the absence of emotions. It is not produced by concentration of the mind but by a stillness of mind due to absence of emotional disturbance."
http://www.protobuddhism.com/Meditationguide.pdf

This stillness of mind is arrived at VIA thinking not concentrating, when mindfulness with breathing is actually practiced it is a culmination of previous calming through thoughts (of dhamma). Even mwb is not(should not be) a "concentration" exercise, it is a method to delve deeper into the calm (of jhana) and see the truth.

BTW I personally believe it is possible to become a faith/dhamma follower (stream enterer) without jhana, but by merely listening to and contemplating the Dhamma.
Slava
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by Slava »

Alex123 wrote: The Buddha has said that there are two kinds of thinking. Wholesome and unwholesome. So we need to avoid unwholesome thinking, not simply ALL thinking whatsoever.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The path is not about being thoughtless. Even worms do not think at all. This doesn't make them awakened or on the path of awakened. Thinking needs to be correct and with wisdom.

My problem was that when the midfulness was weak, it was impossible to avoid unwholesome thinking. The initial wholesome thinking would eventually convert into unwholesome thinking, and since the mindfulness was too weak to catch that, it would take a very long time to realize that the thoughts were unwholesome.

I agree that the path is not about being thoughtless, but my practice benefited from trying to think less and observing more instead.
Slava
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by Slava »

legolas wrote: This stillness of mind is arrived at VIA thinking not concentrating, when mindfulness with breathing is actually practiced it is a culmination of previous calming through thoughts (of dhamma). Even mwb is not(should not be) a "concentration" exercise, it is a method to delve deeper into the calm (of jhana) and see the truth.
I agree that the stillness of mind is not arrived through concentrating, but to me it is not arrived through thinking neither. Rather, it is arrived through letting go. However, each person is unique, so I guess whatever works for one might not necessarily work for another.
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Alex123
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Slava,
Slava wrote: My problem was that when the midfulness was weak, it was impossible to avoid unwholesome thinking. The initial wholesome thinking would eventually convert into unwholesome thinking, and since the mindfulness was too weak to catch that, it would take a very long time to realize that the thoughts were unwholesome.

I agree that the path is not about being thoughtless, but my practice benefited from trying to think less and observing more instead.
Still, whenever you have unwholesome thinking, you can recognize it as such. Even unwholesome states can be an object of insight (see satipatthana sutta), just don't deliberately cultivate them.

Sometimes it is easier to see unsatisfactoriness and not-self in unwholesome & unpleasant mental states, then in blissful and unmoving states of deep concentration. Ultimately as more and more wisdom is gained, the unwholesome thoughts will appear less and less. Work for the long haul. The practice you do now will affect the frequency of future unwholesome mental states. You may not be able to stop the car moving at 100 km/h in one second (short of a crash, which we don't want), but by slowly pressing on the pedal now you can make the car stop in fairly quick amount of time. It is very unlikely to have success immediately. Our wild mind is running very fast, so it takes some time for it to slow down and become tamed. But what you do now, does matter, even if results are not immediately apparent. Thinking should be developed to develop wisdom so as to stop future unwholesome thinking.

IMHO.

Alex
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legolas
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by legolas »

Alex123 wrote:Hi Slava,
Slava wrote: My problem was that when the midfulness was weak, it was impossible to avoid unwholesome thinking. The initial wholesome thinking would eventually convert into unwholesome thinking, and since the mindfulness was too weak to catch that, it would take a very long time to realize that the thoughts were unwholesome.

I agree that the path is not about being thoughtless, but my practice benefited from trying to think less and observing more instead.
Still, whenever you have unwholesome thinking, you can recognize it as such. Even unwholesome states can be an object of insight (see satipatthana sutta), just don't deliberately cultivate them.

Sometimes it is easier to see unsatisfactoriness and not-self in unwholesome & unpleasant mental states, then in blissful and unmoving states of deep concentration. Ultimately as more and more wisdom is gained, the unwholesome thoughts will appear less and less. Work for the long haul. The practice you do now will affect the frequency of future unwholesome mental states. You may not be able to stop the car moving at 100 km/h in one second (short of a crash, which we don't want), but by slowly pressing on the pedal now you can make the car stop in fairly quick amount of time. It is very unlikely to have success immediately. Our wild mind is running very fast, so it takes some time for it to slow down and become tamed. But what you do now, does matter, even if results are not immediately apparent. Thinking should be developed to develop wisdom so as to stop future unwholesome thinking.

IMHO.

Alex
I think one has to be careful of allowing current ideas of meditation obscuring the Buddha's message. Unwholesome thoughts are not an appropriate subject to be contemplating and just "seeing".

Unwholesome thoughts are to be abandoned and that abandoning cannot be done by "just seeing" or "letting go". "Letting go" comes at the end not the beginning. There is a path to travel before one can truly let go.
"And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

As right effort is defined there is desire, endeavour, persistence and intent involved in abandoning unwholesome states. "Just seeing" or "letting go" will just not do and is not mentioned. Knowing an unwholesome state has arisen is important, what to do with it is just as important and the Buddha recommends we DO something about. Only when we are approaching the jhana's can talk of "just letting go" or "just seeing" have any real significance. Until then our letting go has to be induced within the realms of Dhammic thinking.
rowyourboat
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by rowyourboat »

Yonisomanasikara -appropriate contemplation has a big role to play in the Buddhist path,often ignored in modern meditation instructions. I think this is partly due to the fact that it has been incorrectly translated as 'attention' when 'contemplation' would have clarified the matter. It is not possible to divert attention to rupa and see it as a 'cancer' for example (silavant sutta)- this is possible only with a contemplation (others like annicca, dukkha are possible with both). I have cherry picked some important suttas which outline this practice.
Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.
Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
Appropriate contemplation (yonisomanasikara) is a factor for stream-entry.
Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
— SN 55.5
§ 16. {Iti 1.16; Iti 9}
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "With regard to internal factors, I don't envision any other single factor like appropriate contemplation [1]as doing so much for a monk in training,[2] who has not attained the heart's goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage.[3] A monk who attends appropriately abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful.

Notes
1.Appropriate attention/contemplation (yoniso manasikara) is the ability to focus attention on questions that lead to the end of suffering. MN 2 lists the following questions as not fit for attention: "Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past?... Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future?... Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?" The discourse also lists the following issues as fit for attention: "This is stress. This is the origination of stress. This is the cessation of stress. This is the way leading to the cessation of stress."
"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. Which two? The voice of another[1] and inappropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view."

"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
AN 2.125

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#xyz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at Vulture's Peak. Then he said to the monks, "Come, monks, let's go to Inspiration[1] Peak for the day's abiding."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

Then the Blessed One together with a large number of monks went to Inspiration Peak. One of the monks saw the huge drop-off from Inspiration Peak and, on seeing it, said to the Blessed One, "Wow, what a huge drop-off! What a really huge drop-off![2] Is there any drop-off more huge & frightening than this?"

"There is, monk, a drop-off more huge & frightening than this."

"And which drop-off, lord, is more huge & frightening than this?"

"Any priests or contemplatives who do not know, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who do not know, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': They revel in (thought-) fabrications leading to birth; they revel in fabrications leading to aging; they revel in fabrications leading to death; they revel in fabrications leading to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Reveling in fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they fabricate fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Fabricating fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they drop over the drop-off of birth. They drop over the drop-off of aging... the drop-off of death... the drop-off of sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. They are not totally released from birth, aging, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. They are not totally released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"Therefore, monks, your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Alex123
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by Alex123 »

legolas wrote: I think one has to be careful of allowing current ideas of meditation obscuring the Buddha's message. Unwholesome thoughts are not an appropriate subject to be contemplating and just "seeing".
For most of us, unwholesome states are going to arise anyways. No need, and please do not, intentionally bring them up.

However what is done with negative states is important. One can still continue, and should continue, doing satipatthana.

So rather than missing the opportunity, it is better be used.
There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

"When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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legolas
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by legolas »

.........and following on that sutta we read............
Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me," or when sense-desire is not present, he knows, "There is no sense-desire in me." He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire comes to be.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nysa.html
A. Nourishment of Sensual Desire
There are beautiful objects; frequently giving unwise attention to them — this is the nourishment for the arising of sensual desire that has not arisen, and the nourishment for the increase and strengthening of sensual desire that has already arisen.

— SN 46:51

B. Denourishing of Sensual Desire
There are impure objects (used for meditation); frequently giving wise attention to them — this is the denourishing of the arising of sensual desire that has not yet arisen, and the denourishing of the increase and strengthening of sensual desire that has already arisen.

— SN 46:51
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 6.html#des
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Alex123
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by Alex123 »

Hello legolas,

Of course the hindrances need to be dealt with. I never said otherwise.
Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me," or when sense-desire is not present, he knows, "There is no sense-desire in me." He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire comes to be.
Please note all the "he knows..." . Thi,s and other parts, tell us that meditation includes more than simply blanking out or focusing on one thing to the exclusion of all others so that one cannot know anything other than original object of concentration.
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legolas
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Re: Analytic meditation

Post by legolas »

Definitely :smile:
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